The prolonged battle for Bakhmut is portrayed in the press as a symbol of Russian weakness. I know that many Westerners have scratched their heads and wondered why such a fierce battle is being waged over this particular piece of territory. The answer, I believe, lies below the surface of Bakhmut/Soledar in the Soledar Salt Mines (aka Artyomsol Salt Mines). The Salt mine is a monster, with a 125 miles of tunnels.
Take a look at these images:
Evgeny Prigozhin, the creator of the Wagner Group offered the following update on the situation in Bakhmut and mentions the Salt mines in passing:
“Bakhmut is the central point of the Eastern Front and a serious logistics center. And our task there is to die as little as possible, and to destroy the enemy as much as possible.https://t.me/sonar_21/162
Bakhmut’s feature is in its unique historical and geographical defense capabilities, which include, first, the division of the city into several parts by water barriers. Secondly, the neighborhood of Bakhmut is a complex of settlements that create a unified defense system. Thirdly, this is a unique landscape, ravines and heights, which are natural tunnels. And the icing on the cake is the system of Soledar and Bakhmut mines, actually a network of underground cities. In which there is not only a cluster of people at a depth of 80-100 meters, but also tanks and infantry fighting vehicles move. And stockpiles of weapons have been stored since the First World War “(c) Prigozhin
I think there is more going on underground than salt-mining. It is a secure warehouse for Ukraine’s military equipment. The blog ScoopTrade provides a great overview:
Prior to the start of the special military operation in Ukraine, Artyomsol was the largest enterprise for the extraction and sale of table salt in Central and Eastern Europe. It consists of five salt mines, which are located within the city limits of Soledar and Praskovievka: mines No. 1, No. 3, No. 4, No. 7 and the Volodarsky mine. They are interconnected by rail and road, as well as a developed system of underground communications, which, after the outbreak of hostilities, were improved by the military personnel of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
The Artemsoli salt mine system is already being used by the Armed Forces of Ukraine as an underground fortress. Ammunition depots, quarters for personnel, and in some places even hangars for equipment are equipped at great depths. And “get” them from the surface is almost impossible. Underground communications are also used by Ukrainian military personnel to move between positions, and the approaches and some entrances to the mines are mined and ready to be blown up. In terms of difficulty for the assault, the Artemsol mines can easily compete with the famous Azovstal in Mariupol.
This helps explain why Ukraine is pouring shrinking manpower into the meat grinder battle on the surface. It is a critical facility. However, is it possible that Ukraine has stored evidence of its bioweapons program in the mines? This is more than a key transportation/logistics hub.
Curiously, an anonymous White House official this week began pushing the line that Prighozin, who is a Chef, is just interested in getting control of the salt mine financial benefits (and maybe for its culinary quality):
The United States is of the view that Russian President Vladimir Putin’s ally Yevgeny Prigozhin, who is the founder of Russia’s most powerful mercenary group, is interested in taking control of salt and gypsum from mines near the Ukrainian-held city of Bakhmut, a White House official said on Thursday.
There are indications that monetary motives are driving Russia’s and Prigozhin’s “obsession” with Bakhmut, the official added. Prigozhin is the owner of private Russian military company Wagner Group.https://news.yahoo.com/u-thinks-putin-ally-prigozhin-224346077.html
I think there is more to this than just trying to hang on to a profitable natural resource. Ukraine is not fighting a desperate battle and sacrificing thousands of its troops just to protect a lucrative spice. What do you think?
DALE FERGUSON says
Seems this place is the shipping and receiving hub for the whole of the Ukraine army in Donetsk. Russia should seal the main entrances with some MOAB’s. That would keep them busy trying to dig out their ammo supplies.
Pym of Nantucket says
Top Gum says
I would fill it carbon-dioxide. Water will destroy whatever is down there. Carbon-dioxide is deadly and also very sneaky. Just my opinion.
I suppose that you mean CO?
I agree with the carbon dioxide. It will force the personnel to leave at full speed like rabbits, and leave equipment and evidence behind. They can also map the exits using drones to count the rabbits. I wonder if it is feasible to pump in mountain-quantities of CO2? I heard the Russians have gained control of a small corner of the salt mines (and one assumes an entrance?) at Soledar. Plug the entrance, and install one of the left-over turbines from NS2 through the plug. Then ship in hundreds of railway convoys of liquid CO2.
Nitrogen would also be possible, but CO2 has the advantage that it is heavy and ould sink to the bottom of the mines and fill up from the bottom. If I am not mistaken Russia has global quantities of liquified CO2 in their Sakhalin complex in Siberia – just a cargo train journey away.
Top Gum says
Usually people can’t distinguish breathable air from carbon dioxide. It makes you weak and fall asleep. It’s sneaky as I pointed out. Hence the use of canaries in mining. Today we use detector devices. Who knows what they have at those mines there. One scenario is that they would not see it happening and would all die by carbon dioxide intoxication.
Usually people can’t distinguish breathable air from carbon dioxide.
Carbon dioxide plays an essential role in the regulation of breathing. If CO2 level increases, breathing rate increases, and a high level causes panting and discomfort. If CO2 is removed from the air the breathing tends to stop (causing asphyxiation), because the CO2 level is what controls breathing not O2 level. When I was at school many decades ago we did a demonstration of that – the air we breathed in was passed through lime water to remove CO2, and we had to do it in pairs to avoid passing out with one monitoring while the other breaths the decarbonated air. I think we also tried breathing over-carbonated air, but I cannot remember that half properly.
It is all more complex than the above description, and I am not qualified to comment in more detail. I know poor ventilation negatively affects sleep apnea, which superficially appears to be the opposite effect from what I describe above, but it could involve a different mechanism (O2 depletion for example?).
“It will force the personnel to leave at full speed like rabbits, and leave equipment and evidence behind.”
Thank you various “experts” for your reflex of considering killing as first option, and not understanding that the people you wish to kill are part of the evidence of one and one together.
Others don’t harbour that illusion but hope others do harbour that illusion which is unlikely, as some learned from the Nord-Ost performance of 26th October 2002 at the Theatre Centre at Dubrovka.
Some of their opponents remember the Stepan Bandera volleyball game and may wish to repeat co-operations which they hope still remain options without prior agreement.
There are other options for those who ponder ” What would be for afters?” leaving those who don’t ponder “What would be for afters ?” subject to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune as has largely been the case through out – I hear they “lost” China apparently not due to “strategies” but evil doers.
CO is more heavy than air.
N2 is more heavy than air.
CO2 is lighter than air.
Markus Haneveld says
Ik denk dat u koolmonoxide bedoelt i.p.v. kooldioxide.
David Sanderson says
And how the hell do you place enough CO2 in a mine with multiple drives, to suffocate the people in it? Give us a break bloke.
Chuck Taylor says
Agree! Where are the Russians brains?!
Might be children down there… That would kill them.
Diego Vizcarra says
Carbon Monoxide is deadly.
Carbon dioxide is an essential gas for the life on Earth. Carbon dioxide is not toxic or even harmful to human health, nor is it useful for breathing, so that high concentrations of this gas in indoor air produce an uncomfortable sensation because it displaces oxygen from the air and makes breathing more laborious.
Charles E. Fromage says
But CO2 would cause climate change! Can’t do that!
Carbon tetrachloride. Not a banned military eapon, very non flammable, hard to exhaust
Carbon Dioxide is non lethal substance you brain retarded moron What School have you missed the basic chemistry.It is the Carbon monoxide that is lethal.
what makes you think they don’t have systems against that installed inside of this amazingly designed mining community. I’ve never been there or anything but if I was involved at all on the planning of such a complex I would certainly install some kind of air filtration systems or ensure the ability to distribute some kind of life support to counteract what you’re talking about.
to me it seems like it’s going to have to be a good old-fashioned siege that thing has to be fed from outside in some way or another surround clamp down and wait it out
Eric Newhill says
Just shut off the air circulation system. The rats will emerge soon enough. No need to introduce any gasses – besides, if any form of gas is used, NATO will claim that Russia is using WMD.
They could have anything down there. My guess would be nuclear material as opposed to Bio-weapons
Send one man under flag of truce to negotiate/accept surrender and explain to people underground that they have no means of escape and for them the war is over, but if they do surrender peacefully and emerge unarmed that they will be treated humanely and as prisoners of war.
Frances Segarra says
exactly sal dissolves. structure support may fail
All I want from this life is not to reincarnate as a gopher in PYM of Nantucket’s lawn.
Gas it with chlorine.
Slowly I turn...step by step says
What do you think?
Curiously, an anonymous White House official this week began pushing the line that Prighozin, who is a Chef, is just interested in getting control of the salt mine financial benefits (and maybe for its culinary quality):
I think the US should give up on its proxy wars worldwide and start a vaudeville act.
BTW: seems somebody is messing with this site.
Michael Doliner says
Ah, a kindred soul. My idea was to use the salt mine as the set for the remake of the Flash Gorden TV show for Netflix. The armies could be on opposite sides, but with toy guns. Zelinsky could be Zarkov and Putin Flash. Those mines look like a sick set. Let the series go on for years until everyone is burned out.
Probably just munitions and gear, but if the Russians capture these tunnels they’re gonna be dug in like a tick on a dog’s ass. They’ll also be able to move equipment and troops around beyond the view of NATO’s IMINT satellites.
Block all entrances and exits except one and wait.
Bruce the Moose says
All of these comments sound like something you’d hear at an exterminator’s convention. The more interesting questions is: “what’s down there?” What is 404 hiding? Are they simply hiding their own stuff or are they hiding something for the US or NATO?
Chris Eustace says
Obviously as it is said”There is more beneath the surface than is readily seen from above” with this news possibly being the major secret behind the Ukrainian conflict where reputations will be made and lost.
I agree. It would be simple enough (though not necessarily “easy”) to turn it into a tomb. As Larry points out, there must be more to what is down there, as the Ukrainians are determined to protect it, and Russia wants it somewhat intact. If cleaning it out were the only objective, water would work well. Like drowning a gopher out of a hole like we did back on the farm as kids. Start flooding it and they’ll be coming out quickly. There must be something worth capturing, and defending down there. I’d guess if it’s really embarrassing the Ukrainians will blow it up rather than let the Russians get it. Maybe bio warfare evidence, maybe atrocities, who knows?
“the Ukrainians are determined to protect it”
On what datastream do you base your assertion ?
Is it “who knows ?”
And wtf are they gonna get that much water??? These mines are HUGE! Same goes for gases. To fill those up will take ages. Best option is probably plug thd thing up
John Davis says
I don’t get it. Russia has bunker buster bombs and hypersonic missiles that could level the caverns and bury all of that equipment and personnel in a few minutes. Having so many military resources in underground caverns with a finite number of vulnerable exits seems like a liability. I wonder why Russia is trying to capture it all intact, instead of dealing Ukraine a swift, lethal blow.
the last thing one wants to do is collapse and underground mine of this nature/size/importance! I am a mining geologist, so pls trust me on this one!
Thanks SKovacs! I am amazed at the violent suggestions of so many commenters. The mines are magnificent, and the suggestion that they are just for salt in food shows the ignorance of people who do not realise the vast uses salt is put to industrially!!
There are clearly too many “experts” in this world …
“There are clearly too many “experts” in this world … “
Almost all non-coercive co-operation including scientific co-operation is based on the understanding that lateral change is a constant, and consequentially doubt is a constant, omniscience is never an option nor is “expertise”, and hence “experts” do not exist.
Some non-scientists attempt to interpret the above as “It’s all opinion, my opinion is a good as the other person’s opinion, and hence we are all “experts”.
This is deeply ingrained in the culture of “The United States of America” encouraged by “We the people hold these truths to be self-evident” thereby facilitating the transcendence of “The United States of America” with their complicity.
Non-coercive co-operation including scientific co-operation is based on all recognising and practicing that all are practitioners who present hypotheses to be reviewed by others and subsequently discussed in a co-operative of practitioners including the lacunae of the hypotheses hence no subsequent complete agreement is ever likely to exist.
Coercive co-operation is facilitated by notions of “experts” also known as “authorities” to whom others genuflect : in Mr. Johnson’s vernacular “experts/authorities” whose asses others kiss, thereby facilitating the ongoing demise of science in “The United States of America”.
As outlined above there are no experts or “experts” in this world, but many useful fools of varying degree which some interpret as a function of their purposes mutating “There are clearly too many “experts” in this world” into “There are too many useful fools in the world” or “There are not too many useful fools in the world”, the oscillation between which illustrates one of the present discussions within “The United States of America” given that “war” is not restricted to things that go bang, in indication that for some the discussions are less concerned with:
Is she really going out with him?
I don’t know let’s ask her
Betty is that Jimmy’s ring you’re wearing?
Where’d you meet him ?
I met him at the candy store
He turned around and smiled at me
You get the picture ?
Yes we see
That’s how I met The Leader of the Pack (or maybe PAC since science is based on doubt not certainty.)
My definition of Expert: “EX” means HAS BEEN and xperts means “A DRIP UNDER PRESSURE”.
Eric Newhill says
This is war. Be kind to your enemy and you’re being cruel to yourself (which, IMO, is something the Russians have been doing too much of since last Feb 24th).
“Be kind to your enemy and you’re being cruel to yourself (which, IMO, is something the Russians have been doing too much of since last Feb 24th).”
Thank you for your illustration of your ignorance/inflexibility in matters strategic.
“This is war.”
Apparently by “The United States of America” but not for sensible practitioners.
OK – What is the formation – Zechstein? I’m not familiar with this area.
There are Devonian and Permian age salts in the Donetsk region, and the accumulations are enormous (tens of cubic kilometres). The Permian age salts in Donetsk were deposited in a different basin and earlier than the late Permian Zechstein of NW Europe (not that anyone can taste the difference).
Thanks Sko. NW yourope I know. Germany, salt ‘flasks’ washed out to provide underground gas storage and so forth.
Salt is plastic and can be extruded – seen it. These caverns look to be unsupported and stable.
No good getting older if you dont get wiser eh?!.
Collapsing vast underground caverns would also result in subsiding large parts of the city of Soledar above.
Even if carried by a hypersonic missile, the idea that one could get a concussion charge sufficiently large as to collapse the subterranean galleries of salt and gypsum mines 100m underground seems like drawing a long bow.
Gradual flooding might work to evict the defenders of the mines, but it would not be swift. Aside from destroying evidence/prizes, one has to ask from where will the water be sourced in sufficient volume? If these mines were in Dnepropetrovsk and at a lower elevation than the Dnieper River, then a diversion could be made and the upstream Kamianske Reservoir could be drained to flood the mines, but aside from other considerations, contemplate the preparatory civil works that would be needed, all while under enemy fire. Soledar is no where near such a body of water and to get a further idea of the scale of the mines, there are photographs on this page: https://www.ritebook.in/2014/07/the-salt-mine-at-soledar-ukraine.html?spref=pi
If Soledar is encircled, then there is no need to use great numbers of wunderwaffene to demolish the lot, and destroy what ever evidence/prizes lie beneath the surface, we instead have a repeat of the seige and surrender (or is that ‘extraction’?) of Azovstal.
As has been reported over the weekend, the encirclement of Soledar is what the Russian forces are presently doing, as I understand it, the main highways from Soledar toward both Artemovsk and Seversk are no longer available to the Ukrops.
Biswapriya Purkayastha says
Today I saw a striking photo on Telegram: a drone image of a field outside Artëmovsk (“Bakhmut” in Ukranazish), with scattered Ukrainian corpses as far as the eye could see.
The nazi regime is desperately trying to hold the city, but what is it trying to hold it with? Nazi units? What’s left of the regular military? Conscripts? Polandistani “volunteers”? I believe the answer to that question is rather important, because if it is using nazis, regulars, and Polandistanis to try and hold the town, it is throwing away actual military capabilities, while if it is primarily sacrificing conscripts, it’s basically buying time for an effort elsewhere.
Based on the statements made by the head of the “Mozart” group, at least some of them are conscripts. However, I believe they have also moved in several seasoned military formations so it appears there is a mix.
just saying says
…(“Bakhmut” in Ukranazish)…
I have to correct this part. Name Bakhmut predates Ukronazis by many centuries, and there is nothing wrong with using that name for it. History enthusiasts may find it interesting that Bakhmut was capital of Slavo-Serbia (a short lived territory of Imperial Russia).
They are trying to hold it with everything they have available. The time window for effort elsewhere has closed. They are now on the defensive, waiting for Surovikin to make his move.
Salt mines and caverns are not ideal for storing steel/iron materials for long time… they tend to corrode, no matter how hard one tries to keep them greased and oiled.
On the other hand it can be therapeutic for personnel suffering from respiratory problems (sarc.) 100m deep mine also offers constant geothermal heat for the half frozen soldiers, which the german green party certainly supports.
Biolabs in salt mines: oh yes! prime environmental setting! not kidding this time.
Georgiy Yamov says
Apparently it’s other way around, since it’s used as arms warehouse since WWI. I have no idea about physics of that phenomena, but maybe salt sucking all moisture from air.
I don’t think Salt mines are highly corrosive on iron. The ions when dissolved in water can but the salt deposits should keep the environment dry and ideal for storage.
I think Wagner is doing well. Prighozin tells prisoners that when they complete their contract they are free and that 80% will not complete. There is compensation to families. Contracts have been completed. It’s working. Functioning societies leading the way. The rest of the story I’ll take with a grain of salt.
Spread the Word about real Wagner says
Wtf, most of the good ole Wagner folks are rugged, free, mountain boys from the Caucuses which is todays Chechnya. In the Russian Republic of Chechnya.
Perhaps the best fighters in the world. They are a unit of the Russian MoD. They answer to Mr. Kadyrov, the President of the Republic, who together with Mr. Progzin speak directly to Putin.
They are vicious fighters who liberated Mariupol last year, are now in the buisness of giving the poor Ukrainians a shellacking all over the map. Just set them loose. They are the guys with the long beards, Muslims and don’t like nonsense.
The Ukrainian units have a cold- hearted fear of these guys, and it is understanded why.
In 2014, when the AFU secret services were abusing, committing serious human rights abuses on the peoples of the Donbass when they first broke free and claimed independence, these Chechen/Wagners came in and organised a quick resistance with the civilian pop. The Donbass militias were born.
Fast forward to 2015 where there was a serious bloody battle against the AFU Azov Battalions at the Spanking, Shiny new Donbass Airport that RU built where the Ukies where thoroughly destroyed by Chechens/Wagner units and then the Ukie army columns bolted west where very deadly and accurate mortar fire of various calibers caught the Ukie Armed forces , in their columns and decimated them at the Battle of Debaletsevo. They Chechen/Wagner fire would target the leading vehicles, APC’s, light tanks and work their way down the line. Surviving Ukies later in interviews said that with every crash, thud or fire, or RPG foire they would hear the Glorious ‘ Allahu Akhbar ‘ . What do you know, Muslims and Slavs fighting and dying together to save civilians from immenet slavery, mass eviction or death. Very beautiful indeed.
And later, Russian Slavs returned the same favor to their Muslim brethren in Syria.
Cato the Uncensored says
The Sovs had weapons caches in many of the region’s salt mines. They were a great place to store many things owing to a rather controlled environment and the relative ease of defending them from outside threats. No surprises here. Thebiggest cache in the region was on the other side of Donetsk, near Paraskoviyevka.
Richard Steven Hack says
People wondered whether they might be biowarfare facilities under the Azovstal plant. Perhaps there really are some in the salt mines facility.
This might make some sense of the report that Ukraine sent a CBW unit to Bakhmut. We mostly assumed that was just the desperation of their need for reinforcements, but perhaps it indicates something else.
Time to send down the reconnaissance bots. No reason to waste lives.
Men who can hold their breath under water for 30 minutes…waiting for a safe passage home. Hero,Hero, Hero’s. CNN medals 🥇
Or trapped, out of ideas, no plan and going insane on the drugs and grog. I know it’s dodgy to make assumptions but! Ukraine has had nothing but, “reality”defeats since 24th Feb 22. This looks like the final stuff up.
Prediction. General Armageddon unleashes “The night of 3,000 drones,”+ 30 hypersonic missiles (every important bridge.) 300 missiles and lights out permanently.
Any NATO easy beats cross the boarder it’s game on. If it goes off, it’s full on, China, North Korea, India, Iran, Turkey. With every US base on foreign soil under attack.
Question: is America prepared to burn baby burn, for Ukraine?
Now that would be outrageous!
Biden is still driving semi 18 wheeler trucks. As the man who invented the internet flys private and the blonde white, “pokerher highness,” fist bumps her people of colour homies in “their” hood. (mask on)
The next war has gotta be Serbia, got lucky last time, why not.
If the Republicans cannot even elect their own Speaker of the House, they should give the Democrats the front door keys and just go home.
Дувај га дебилу
Any static position can be fixed and destroyed…. forces deep underground cannot manoeuvr and fight therefore they are useless in a modern combined combat arms scenario.
“…. forces deep underground cannot manoeuvr and fight therefore they are useless in a modern combined combat arms scenario.”
Not if your purpose is to “suicide” your forces to facilitate an initial fall-back option of dividing and rule in the future through derivatives of it-was-not-me-it-was-my-sisterness, whilst removing “problems” in the attempt thereby minimising witnesses to tell their tale instead of the “the truth”.
Larry, today Russian operators in Bakhmut have reported use of chemical weapons (see link).
As I understand it, salt can be an excellent seal of WMD including nuclear waste. Chemical weapons may well be stored in those vast undercover caverns.
Dirty Secrets says
I suspect that the ukrozionazi regime uses the tunnels to hide not only US biolabs but also the regime’s dirty nuclear bombs. That is why Bakhmut/ Artëmovsk is such a big deal for the ukrozionazi regime
Ocean Jasper says
If there is something that UKR doesn’t want found down in those mines why didn’t they move it before Wagner fought it’s way into the city?
Taking it out in the open where it can be intercepted wouldn’t be a good idea. Anything that moves is likely being observed. A Catch-22 pickle. Screwed either way, so leave it where they can blow it up and bury it if they have to. The fight might even be to stall for enough time to wire it up for destruction. I’d imagine if it’s that bad, they won’t let the Russians have it, so collapsing the whole complex might be in the cards, and maybe set it up so they can take some Russians in the process, as in booby trap the whole place. Hard to say, all is speculation at this point.
How about a fledgling nuclear program deep in the salt caverns? May be better to false flag nuke (or otherwise detonate) the site than to have it exposed by Russia…just a wild guess 🙂
I would say, not secure enough as a location, unless something was started before 2014. After 2014, it was too close to conflict line.
I wanted to write the same. In Switzerland, salt-caves are used to store nuclear waste. Salt-caves seems to be tectonically very stable and appropriate for storing radioactive materials.
Blackbird 25 says
hmm. we’ve been here before at Azovstahl. After much speculation nothing was found, or announced by the Russians/LDNR. Some bodies burned to nothing, perhaps embarrassing NATO personel. We will probably never know.
So these mines have commercial value, the Ukrainians are using them as ready made bunkers and shelters. I think that’s about it, but I’m sure we will find out soon enough.
Sgt. Based says
Didn’t they capture a NATO general there or something?
Blackbird 25 says
yes I think possibly one. didn’t match up to the hype and theories about what might be down there though
it’s possible something was there. Zelensky did fire himars at the pows taken from Azovstahl after all
Yes. I’m glad Russia threw off the communist yoke. However how did Mr. P not realise Mr. Z would want his adherents silent and dead. In the bad old days they would all have been safely ensconced in Siberia, comrade.
Taking “Azov steel” was probably a comparatively easy exercise …
martin mkultra7 says
remember the 6 helicopters the ukies sent to Asovstal?
Sgt. Based says
It’s funny watching Russia, a nation known in history for human wave tactics and spending thousands of lives to block enemy gun emplacements, be so careful about spending the lives of even a literal penal battalion.
Meanwhile Ukraine is sending senior citizens at gunpoint to be chewed up by Russian artillery.
US Commander in Chief Poopy Pants says
Just like Poopy Pants cares more for Ze🐽 than for US citizenry. Also on that theme I was wondering what the heck is Victoria F**K EU Nuland (Nudelman) doing? Should she not be cooking for the “soldiers of freedom” in the tunnels? Or is she busy in Hell Aviv partaking in Mielenkowsky’s famous orgies?
Top Gum says
Wars are fought by soldiers, not by bullets, tanks or missiles. We are not at that point yet, but close thanks to AI and the technological development of the last 2 decades.
Paul Greenwood says
You mean like the British Army at Wadi Akarit 1943 ?
Much more time, money and effort is invested in training today’s soldiers.
Even Ukraine tries to preserve its trained soldiers by utilizing people grabbed off the street with little to no training to stop bullets.
Philip Garber says
People forget that Ukraine is also a post Soviet state with all that implies in terms of its military culture.
You’re confusing the USSR with Russia. Big difference.
“Ukraine is not fighting a desperate battle and sacrificing thousands of its troops just to protect a lucrative spice.”
If it was a saffron mine I could see the need to defend it to the last Ukranian, but salt, no way.
This has been a most an interesting war. First, we had the Chechens and the Donetsk People’s Militia vs Azov, then we had the combined forces of the small but plucky Donbas militias holding back the entire Ukraine Army along a contact line longer than the one on Western Front in 1916, and now we have the Wagner Group whittling way at the dwindling remains of Nato at a mini-Verdun called Bakhmut.
Doin’ it meatgrinder style!
“Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downwards.”
“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.”
F*ck that. Give me Sir Douglas Haig.
“Machine guns are taken through grit and determination!”
Note: Anybody seen the Russian Army? I’m told it exists, and will join the fight before this war is over. It had better hurry up though, if it wants to be involved in the victory festivities.
Why is Haig controversial?
But as the memory of the WWI conflict faded, Haig’s reputation changed dramatically. He came to symbolise everything that was wrong with the war and was blamed for sending thousands of soldiers to needless deaths in the bloody battles of the Somme and Aras.Nov 7, 2018
while western masters have shown their complete stupidity over several decades of failures, I doubt they would hide “sensitive” stuff such as biolab related material in that region. They would put it somewhere in western ucr.
There was no need and they never bothered hiding the labs. All military grade bio labs were listed on Pentagon site until recently.
The US either didn’t expect Russia to attack, so need to hide things, or wanted to provoke it i.e. control the timing of the attack, ready to evacuate.
In either case provision would have been made for any lab handling level 3 and 4 substances.
Big Balinese Wheel Money says
I’m no geologist, but I must assume there are some other valuable minerals mixed in with those gypsum/salt veins.
Now that Russian forces are in Soledar, it would be pointless for the Ukrainian/Polish/NATO mercenaries try hold on to the underground salt tunnels at any cost. It would have been better if they wanted save Soledar-Artemovsk, they had done it long before the Russians entered the area. So now it is too late. Just like the Azovstal, the Russian military understands full well how they can encircle/trap the remainder of Ukronazi thugs inside the vast network of salt tunnels. In fact this is an ideal place for use as a temporary prison of the Ukrainian pow’s in the future. Soon or later they will either surrender or die of hunger, disease etc. Most of the soldiers fighting on the side of AFU aren’t even well paid mercenaries, but mostly Ukrainian slave laborers turned fighters that are sandwiched in between the Russian artillery and Neonazi, NATO troops. Their only option, unfortunately is to face death. How long it’ll take for people in the Ukraine to realize the incredible crime waged against them by the NATO backed puppet Zelenski regime which cares less about Ukraine and its people than lining their pockets with all the money sent to them by US-Western neocons?
“How long it’ll take for people in the Ukraine to realize the incredible crime waged against them by the NATO backed puppet Zelenski regime which cares less about Ukraine and its people than lining their pockets with all the money sent to them by US-Western neocons”?
Succinct and well said my friend.
On point my good fellow!
As I see it
The only possible escalation steps available to the West, clearly on the ropes at this late stage, that they believe will turn the tide & change the game, are:
Full on nuclear suicide
Or their sole option prior to that
The mass use of chemical / biological agents
We know the West has no morals & complete disregard of law in this regard
Plus a long history of treachery regarding banned & illegal methods / warfare
It’s possible that the intensity of battle for Bakhmut, is a designed hypnotic lure to unceasingly draw Ru heavily into the sacrificial Ukr disposable draftees domain
While deep underground the silent pest awaits
Designed to ‘go off’ at the time of NATO’s choosing
Likely when the widely anticipated winter operation begins, at multiple places along the front & beyond that, in Belarus
I don’t see any other rabbits in this NATO bag that make sense of the senseless sacrifice at Bakhmut
I pray I’m wrong, but won’t bet against it in this tragic game of winner takes all
Your assumption makes a lot of sense –
As pretty much everything turns out to be worse than anticipated at some point.
I still hope (foolishly, perhaps) that these very black clouds will be cleared out of the skies by a strong cooling gale.
I believe in the combination of military skills, diplomatic skills, industrial power, spiritual nerve to get out of this nightmare.
Sadly, all the Ukrainian development since 1991 has been predictable all along. Back then Solzhenitsyn, among others, had voiced adamant warnings.
Thirty years later the price paid for ignoring them is very high.
Your assumption makes a lot of sense –
As pretty much everything turns out to be worse than anticipated at some point.
I still hope (…) that these black clouds can be cleared off soon by a strong cooling gale.
Sadly, this whole Ukrainian nightmare has been predictable all along since 1991. Back then, Solzhenitsyn among others had voiced his concern. The price paid for ignoring the trap is very high.
Rights in Rem says
There are many poisonous or asphyxiating gasses that can be pumped into the mine. Any shale gas drilling contractor could directionally drill into it from kilometres away and then pump gas in. Some of these gasses are odourless and tasteless. Maybe they are drilling already.
Rights in Rem,
I thought of that too, but 125 miles of tunnels means lots of air shafts and a heck of a giant air volume (cubic miles?). If the goal is to not get the UKR to destroy evidence, that would be risky. Far better to start a process of starving them out, and get messages in encouraging UKR soldiers to frag their officers and surrender.
Key is to cut communications with the Kiev.
Plus there probably are high level officers who know things that ukraine would be desperate to extract or kill, and would keep throwing their army into the grinder.
Robert Garnett says
Sounds like bullshit to me. What right would Prigozhin have to them?
Pito from Mescalito says
Possibly lithium. There are said to be huge lithium deposits in the Donbas.
We were faced with similar questions in Mariupol: What’s in the underbelly of
Azovstal? NATO advisors, foreign mercenaries, etc. Why were Ukrainians sacrifying
those helicopters there? It turned out to be nothing.
Alessandro Cagliostro says
why not use thermobaric bombs in ventilation points, in a closed environment they would obtain the maximum effect,
The Russians are already close to surrounding Soledar. The highway from Bakhmut is under fire control. There are some newly arrived Ukrainian forces that have arrived from the south that may withstand a complete encirclement for yet some time. But this stronghold seem to fall much quicker than what was expected. It’s not at all defended by all means available.
Zalushni wanted to give up the Bakhmut-Soledar-Siversk line half a year ago and instead concentrate on the Konstantinovka-Slavyansk line.
All this indicates that Soledar is not very relevant. But hey, to the Western public nothing’s better than wild speculations about Canadian generals, secret bio labs and perhaps child sacrifices going on 300 meter below the surface.
Real tangible events are probably too boring even in a war.
Azovstal underground levels was fitted out offices, labs and workshops as NATO´s operational HQ in Ukraine combined with a political jail and bio weapons research center as a minimum. Bakmut salt mines being 80-100m underground could be the ideal bomb proof battlefield materiel resupply hub for the whole Eastern Ukraine front. I suspect as a minimum it contains more of the cluster munitions ukrops have fired at Donbass and may well be a store of the bio weapon aerosols that some Turkish supplied drones were equipped to spray over Donbass. Probably quantities of all war crime types of weapons and ammo that NATO wished to test or use up in combat. Any bets NATO will blow up the stuff they dont want falling into Russian hands when the mines look like falling?
IF the is a major NATO army command center there it was likely set up at very short notice once the siege of Azovstal began because we can bet neither NATO or 404 ever planned for or imagined Azovstal would be under siege let alone fall. Salt causes metals to oxidize so whatever is stored down there would need to be airtight sealed if it is made of metal and likely to spend any significant amount of time in the mines. Once these mines entrances are either blocked or under siege perhaps we will see the whole Donbass front line run out of ammo within a week
Dick Burns says
Global Human Trafficking Network Hub. Among Other Things.
Michael Droy says
In 2014/15 there was also a ridiculous amount of fighting over the Donetsk airport.
I don’t think it was ever clear why there was such a fuss.
Perhaps it was just a Soviet fighting tradition, and perhaps there is nothing significant about Bakhmut.
I’d love to think that there is some great dark secret to be found that will make the world realise just how evil those Nazis and Nato handlers are. But I’m still waiting for the Mariupol Steel works secrets too.
I think it is all simpler and similar to Kherson, Izium and other battles. So long as Ukraine is willing to throw in 10 men for every Russian that gets killed, then it makes sense for Russia to just keep the battle continuing instead of finishing it or withdrawing.
Kiev policy is US policy is Biden domestic opinion management policy and very short term. Kiev policy = No bad news in next week (even if it does cost another wasted 5,000 lives)
” So long as Ukraine is willing to throw in 10 men for every Russian that gets killed, then it makes sense for Russia to just keep the battle continuing instead of finishing it or withdrawing”.
Nay Mike. If the Russians keep this kind of war up too long the West/NATO is being given time to come up with some “plans”. Afterall this Ukraine conflict is really just an appetizer for the real meal ahead. As Monty reportedly said to Ike when he asked council whether to initiate D-Day on June 5/6, “I say Go, Go, Go!”. I’m sorry to say that I can’t wait to see the egg on the faces of all those pro-Uke assholes in the West.
Just saying says
The Soledar salt mines were also a tourist attraction. Just google it. You’ll get dozens of links. There were operas held in huge caverns, a church, a soccer pitch, even souvenir shops, and religious carvings. Similar sites exist around Europe and elsewhere.
Access is by huge elevators, because we’re talking deep. A road or railway would need a long gentle incline to get down 500 feet or much more, and be a bit obvious in a military situation. Ventilation is rather important, as is electric power because otherwise dark is as dark as you can get. It’s a tomb without artificial ventilation and light. Any spare electricity in the area right now?
Another blogger covered the Soledar salt mines back in August, and stacks of light weapons of the infantry kind from WW2 and even earlier are stored at level 152m. Try a blockbuster bomb on that, and you wouldn’t have much luck. Sure there are underground railways and trucks running around. There are the same sort of things in the worlds largest salt mine, Sifto Salt in Ontario, Canada. Assembled below from parts sent down by elevators.
Certainly, Ukrainian soldiers can hang around safe underground in the Soledar salt mines and have some R & R. Then what? Emerge with a tank battalion and waving vials of bio-poison? Using elevators while Russkies hacksaw the steel ropes? Or just cut the electric power? So the Ukrainians have rigged explosives at some entrances, what for one cannot imagine. To entomb themselves? It’s not like Avostal at all, far. far deeper.
Dream on, and get a grip. Nobody’s going to make a fortune off a salt mine, like some old supposed Putin crony, even if it’s uuuuuge. The place doesn’t even make the top ten salt mines in the world. Not exactly a shortage of salt anywhere.
“What do you think?”
How many NATO big wigs are hidden there?
A “Cloutier disaster” part II is in the making? 😉
None is my guess.
The have had time to plan what they are doing here and there will likely be specialist NATO troops in there. So time to execute.
Well of course salt caverns are a ritualistic thing & them crazy Ukei’s be ‘fraid of the dark, so a simple read –
And everyone knows that god is gay, else why all all the dudes around puberty be seriously pretty. So, salt mines = Ruski’s throw away their magic tortoise the gay by making only straight legal = the RF might not lose this insane war, but they might not win.
The god of nature proving once again, as if it were necessary after all these centuries, human insanity for a buck for the grrrreeeeaaaayttt USofA
Radish Wrangler says
I don’t think the folk recommending flooding with water or gasses have fully grasped just how vast the Soledar complex is. It really is enormous. This old blog post gives some idea of the scale: https://awfulavalanche.wordpress.com/2022/08/13/ukraine-war-day-171-the-battle-for-soledar/
Regarding the arms storage on just one level:
“What does it look like?”
“Imagine a tunnel-like chamber 17 meters wide and 50 meters high, all surrounded with a metal grille. Then, one after the other, a series of several sub-chambers, each 150-200 meters long. It’s huge, you could run a train with 500 cars through it. There are literally thousands of wagons filled with weapons.
“The weapons are stored in the wagons?”
“No, the wagons bring them in. For example, they brought us train-cars full of weapons after the first Karabakh War. And tons of Nazi memorabilia: swastikas on belts, holsters, rifles…”
Petri Väätäinen says
I hardly believe such a complex was dug because of salt. Given that the deep state was running a secret biolab program in Ukraine, all bets are literally off what might be in that underground complex. I have a hunch that this complex might store the most sensitive deep state assets/secrets. Clearing 125 miles of tunnels is one helluva job, though. Drones do help to avoid traps and ambushes.
I don’t think this is about money. Commentators above have noted the stategic importance of this area.
It was always going to be a hornets nest.
If you look at the terrain and built up areas around it, this was the natural key military base in the area and you don’t just give up your key military bases.
I would expect the first serious conflict in Soledar as the tunnels extend under there and it would be the natural place for the Ukrainians to try to obliterate tyr concentrated forced needed to take the location.
Like a hornets nest if the Russians attack one side the Ukranians will swarm other areas and possibly being depending on how extensive these tunnels are. So no easy options. Much harder that Mariupol as this is far more fortified and unpredictable.
Yes you can bomb the entrance but if you don’t have the troops to hold the area the other side probably has time to open it up again. And if there are multiple entrances and perhaps new unknown ones why waste bombs until there is a real need. Cutting off supplies and surrounding the area are steps Russia seems to be slowly taking.
This could be a blood bath if it’s not done right, only fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
It’s probably the biggest NATO base stacked with all manner of war peripheral.
Michael Creighton says
That would be my guess as well.
Mon Djak says
Maybe. But probably not. War is just gruelling work with few rewards and few breakthroughs. And that is that.
Maybe if the Russians win enough people will come forwards to piece together stories of Maidan Ukraine. But then, the Russian victors will have very strong need to piece together something that helps them rule a broken Ukraine with hundreds of thousands of dead. So it is best to be cautious all around. We will see.
Likewise, the Ukrainians are in a good position. Defending is easier. They may be thinking come on in a little closer. If the Ukrainians and NATO are not fully prepared here with all it’s benefits, then it’s game over. Their aim has to be to spring surprises and massively decimate the Russian offensive. So it is interesting that the NATO side has not put up that much resistance. But they may well.
Bert Huber says
In Germany media and politicians are making big stories because Scholz has now decided to deliver armoured vehicles Marder. And a lot are yelling that they should also deliver
Leopard battle tanks.
Truth or Consequences says
Scholz is a complete moron. He recently said that Russia started the war in Georgia.
Or, maybe he’s not a complete moron but half moron and half liar, like Merkel.
Mon Djak says
Media? You mean CIA?
just saying says
Past year has turned into big learning experience about former Soviet republic of Ukraine. It turns out that they had world class infrastructure and industry. All the HIMARSes of the world could not take down Kherson bridges, and the whole Donbass region seems to be like a giant anthill. Now I understand why half of Donbass militia members say that
they were miners before the war, and why Donetsk football club is called Shakhter (Шахтёр, miner in Russian).
just saying says
Speaking of well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security and freedom of population. It seems to me that Donbass miners, that never heard of Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, have better understanding of it than US citizens.
HMS Terror says
I kinda doubt there’s any nefarious secret being protected below Soledar. Even if there is something “fishy” being stored there, it wouldn’t be worth burning through brigade after brigade in a vain attempt to keep it secret when it can just be blown up.
Rather, I’d lean towards it having figured prominently in UK/US/NATO’s future plans for UA. I’m guessing it had been earmarked as its future, nuke-proof, forward command centre on Eurasia’s doorstep. It may even be the case that significant investments have already been made in preparing it for its future role.
Anyway, we’ll see what efforts are made to recover it after the Russians take control of the surface. It looks markedly more habitable than the dank catacombs under Azovstal, so assuming ample stores of food and water we may not find out what’s under Bakhmut/Soledar for many months.
Ghost of Mozgovoy says
That sounds quite plausible, a remaining command center for the last nuclear option against Russia, even if it has to be not only to the last Ukrainian, but even to the last European too, something we the European taxpayers are seeing increasinly clear written in the book of US estrategy in this war, according to the ongoing non stopping escalation plans.
If Europe survives such an option, it will definitely seal the fall of the Anglosaxon Empire. Europe, or what remains of it, will revolt, and highly likely will join the Russians against those who brought misery, destruction and chaos, throughly planned to its lands since the end of WWII.
“Even if there is something “fishy” being stored there, it wouldn’t be worth burning through brigade after brigade in a vain attempt to keep it secret when it can just be blown up.”
Thank you for your tendency towards unicausality in obfuscation of perhaps there are more than one reason perhaps including fish.
We have to distinguish between the Soledar location and the Soledar mines. The location is extremely important as it’s on the connection line between Bakhmut and Siversk. On the west side of Soledar there are two tank brigades and there are also two mechanized brigades in the area. But it seems that their mission is primarily to protect the highway and the railway. Of course that can’t be protected without holding Soledar. Anyway, if the defense line is cut, this can be the start of rolling up the Ukrainian forces both northwards and southwards.
So Soledar itself is very important. But I haven’t yet seen any signs that the mines contain anything extraordinary (I’d guess the weapons are long gone). And if the Russians can surround the city it’s not hard to clear the mines. Taking Azovstaal wasn’t difficult due to the basements. It was difficult because of the above-surface factories and the fact that Russia didn’t want to level these buildings. Such concerns are unlikely to be considered in Soledar.
There’s even a tourist reception for the mines, so if it were up to me I would have closed off the entrances and taken tickets for letting soldiers go on “safaris” in the mines. I’m sure that would attract tourists from all over the world.
Jack Gordon says
Block the entrances and exits. Declare those trapped inside POWs…. and wait, wait, wait. Station enough heavily armed troopers in the area and wait. Other forces can attack the Ukies above ground and drive them back. But the mine guards just wait. Patience and persistence are their principal weapons along with hunger and thirst. (Perhaps they can arrange fans to have the smell of sizzling bacon waft into the mines….)
The first really sensible comment I’ve read today.
Patience and persistence, siege warfare. Nobody’s going anywhere with the entrances guarded, surface power, water and ventilation cut off. Nothing like the smell of a bacon sanger… psychological warfare at its most cunning.
Larry Johnson says
Correct. Avozstal 2.0.
Spread the Word about real Chechen/ Wagner says
My comments are being deleted. this is wrong. im gone, for good. revolutionary my foot.
Larry Johnson says
You are not being deleted. Just a delay because your comment is being flagged for some unknown reason.
A couple of schematics from Cassad, (of course, in Russian) without my comments:
Translation of text possible with any translation service but complicated for the schematics themselves; believe with yandex it is possible.
I think Ukraine’s behavior is most likely because of the simple fact that Bakhmut is the key to Russia retaking all of the Donbass.
Loss of the Donbass would be impossible to ignore – and it also means revealing the extent of Western propaganda about Russia losing; Western leaders and MSM losing all credibility etc etc.
In a real sense, the battle over Bakhmut/Artemovsk also reduces the likelihood of Russian offensives elsewhere.
James Cook says
ya……. Larry, Larry, Larry……………………….the images ignite the human imagination (perhaps your entire point with this one), but even the people who work in BioLabs do NOT live in them. They sanitize/sterilize IN and sanitize/sterilize on the way OUT.
This latest post is designed to light up the imagination of the readership.
If bio-weapons were to be used in this conflict, you would think they would have already been released – the hole point is to render the enemy harmless from causing unwanted destruction. Look at eastern Ukraine and the wasteland that has been created of the civilization that once thrived there????????????????
Sure, the salt mines are a secure storage fortress……..but only till foot soldiers arrive and take control over the entrances. Holding out in this underground bunker with no light/power would not last long.
I have been in an underground salt mine and when the power is turned off, it is completely BLACK……..like you have no eyes or are blind and the only sounds you can hear is the sounds you can make. Being locked underground is not pleasant and is just a waiting game to see how long it takes for the remaining humans to make it to the surface before they go mad.
It is analogous to being buried alive. Not a pleasant fate!
It would be more fitting to send Blinken, Nuland, Bolton and the rest of the neocon crew down there and lock the doors. I would have added Biden, but he is already in his eternal mental darkness!
just saying says
There is no need for something special to be hidden in there, in order for Bakhmut to be worth fighting for. It is a transport hub, and a necessary step towards Slavyansk and Kramatorsk, where the final stage of battle for Donbass will happen. Taking control of whole Donbass is one of the main reasons this whole thing started in the first place.
Zelensky is not reatreating because it would look bad, and he is all about the looks. He has been fighting desperate battles and sacrificing troops for almost a year. It would be weird if he was to do something reasonable.
In unrelated news, China is repairing Taiwanese anti ship missiles.
Curt Nichols says
Larry, you continue to always pique my interest. Some fascinating photo’s and insights there that somehow is not mentioned anywhere else. More questions than answers. But I know the West is losing.
Troops in the Bundeswehr are stating they will not fight. 1000 German Army members have applied for CO status. Oh? And the mighty Bundeswehr? 180,000 total. They WANT to expand all the way UP to 203,000 next year. I know I beat this to death. Tail to tooth ratio. 1 fighter for every 8 rear echelon fucks. That is 22,500 fighting soldiers. With by the way no weapons. Google German Army broomsticks. They literally on some exercises carried broomsticks to simulate weapons. They would last about one hour against Russia. NATO, like our US troops in Romania and Poland, are sacrificial speedbumps to give us time to decide to launch the nukes. Period.
Broomsticks? That would be the secret German Airborne units on the Wunderwaffe supplied by Ursula Fondof Lying when she was Defence Minister.
Its a wonder that Elensky hasn’t been pressuring the West for more broomsticks too.
I guess the vast majority of Germans of military age have a sufficient knowledge of history to not want to be part of a third-time-lucky campaign on the Eastern Front.
Stupid Pet Tricks Vol. I says
What’s hiding in the salt mines? No doubt the entire civilian population that Wagner executed and wants to keep hidden, like those infamous Trepca mines that UNMIK spent years investigating and coming up empty-handed.
Now on to more stupid MSM pet tricks:
Foxnews: Putin’s Orthodox Christmas truce proposal was ‘cheap propaganda trick’ says Yuriy Sak, Adviser to the Ukraine Defense Ministry.
Ukraine’s expertise on ‘cheap propaganda tricks’ is unmatched, so who better to recognize one?
Now, this one’s a doozy, from Rand: https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html
Extending Russia, Competing from Advantageous Ground
Apparently, it’s upset that some folks are taking at face value its 2019 play book in ‘extending’ Russia that the West seems to have followed to a tee in Ukraine and decided to add this very interesting note, hoping it would deter any further comparative analysis between policy paper and policy reality.
Editor’s Note, September 2022: We encourage you to explore this report and its accompanying research brief. However, because Russian entities and individuals sympathetic to Putin’s decision to invade Ukraine have mischaracterized this research in recent weeks, we also encourage you to explore this helpful resource on Russia’s “firehose of falsehood” approach to propaganda and our research on “Truth Decay,” which is a phenomenon that is driven in part by the spread of disinformation.
Firehose of Falsehood! – wow, what a way with words. Stupid pet tricks indeed.
I’m in total agreement. Outside of Bakhmut being a nexus of transportation, it would make sense that most of the supplies and armaments are stored there.
Vallhalla Rising says
1. Surely Russia has some kind of “bunker buster” or ground penetrating munition that could collapse the exit and entry points.
2. Speaking of exit and entry points…I would think Russia would ISR the shit out of those to fill their intel gaps.
3. Maybe Russian planners are waiting for a certain trigger event before they either occupy by force or seal the mines off…if its a legit military target there’s no reason why it wouldn’t be a missile magnet.
James Smith says
I recall during the whole Azovstal event I would see these insane diagrams of the many miles and levels of the underground city. Hospitals. Laboratories. Hospital. Hydroponic gardens. Power plants, etc.
And I said, “Have any of you guys considered that it might just be a wet, dark, filth-ridden dunghole where they’re all suffering in misery?”
And I was cursed and reviled by everyone.
Sure, the Ukies could be hiding something juicy and nefarious under there. But they’re probably fighting to the death over it because it’s a lynchpin, strategically speaking. If they lose it then the rest of what they retain of Donbas is going to be lost to them.
And to the idea of killing the people in those mines by using toxic gas: that’s a war crime.
Joe Grogan says
I was going to write a joke about salt.
But in the end I thought ‘Na’.
HMS Terror says
:-)) )) ))
Francisco Viñuela says
“It is not histories I am writing, but lives; and in the most glorious deeds there is not always an indication of virtue or vice, indeed a small thing like a phrase or a jest often makes a greater revelation of a character than battles where thousands die.”
There is a life after war you know. To destroy such a valuable resource simply in order to prosecute a war seems to me to be near-sighted. We hear about how some impressive percentage of resources are contained in the Donbass, making it the dog that wags the economic tail of the rest of Ukraine.
Bill Orr says
Kerry Cassidy agrees. She says it’s a massive reptilian nest with a queen. If true, these tunnels are much extensive and dangerous than we know.
Wow. De facto “Teddybear” just announced extralegal extraterritorial actions.
Honk Honk says
The Wunderwaffen and troops that will march all the way to Moscow for a glorious victory are hiding there.
ALL are targets of the depopulation guys. ALL. any new troops in russia will be injected, the us sets up the paid elite or mecenary troops to be slaughtered by russia, electricity is cut to blow up all the grain storage, ships cant sail to send grain, due to insurance ect, ALL are targeted, NONE are the blessed ones to triumph, the war is against all the populations on earth, each region is required to kill or assist the killing of a very large part of its population. Putins kid, still in switzerland? head of north korea went to school where? switzerland, russia uses all its weapons and then cant fight to keep its stans from leaving, where are all the weapons going? probably regions of russia to help part of it to break apart. the checkens were slaughtered yes? would they reform as independent if they could? sure, just bomb the leader and his family away. ect ect.
I am just not a believer of any media or frankly anyone. go to the catholic church and get the host antidote.
Michael Creighton says
John 6:54. Search eucharistic miracles
Paulo Guerra says
Whatever is in the mines Russia knows. And apparently the propagandists of DC too. And it seems that they are very worried.
Great interview by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of India in Austria! Someone who clearly challenges the unipolar world and the lies of the West!
Thanks for this link
Fulano de Tal says
What a great interview.
souldark captured human farming beneath satanic harvest
100s of miles
“It was the end, for whatever remains to me of life on the surface of this earth, of every vestige of mental peace and confidence in the integrity of Nature and of the human mind. And yet deep down Nothing that I could have imagined—nothing, even, that I could have gathered had I credited old Zadok’s crazy tale in the most literal way—would be in any way comparable to the daemoniac, blasphemous khazar reality that I saw—or believe I saw in that salted abyss. I have tried to hint what it was in order to postpone the horror of writing it down baldly. Can it be possible that this planet has actually spawned such things beneath our feet, that human eyes have truly seen, as objective flesh, what man has hitherto known only in febrile phantasy and tenuous legend?”
TOS 1-a uses?
This thermobaric / flamethrower / air-fuel rocket propelled weapon was mentioned in these comments, and I have heard that Russia began using them in various places, but have seen no evidence, or any specific reports.
The last time I looked into this was months before the SMO commenced, and it was through Russian Army videos, before the 1-a had come to light in the West. The target scenes were horrific indeed, and images from some combat use showing bodies charred into something like those being dug out of the pyroclastic flows of Pompeii were ghastly. Surprised that this has mostly passed notice by all the sources I am trying to follow.
Anybody have links to reports?
Many telegram channels, Intel Slava is one, show many videos of the thermobarics in action.
Search and ye shall find…
Black Cloud says
The salt mines are likely nothing more than a militarized industrial facility. It would be good to preserve it for future use.
Some 30 biolabs in Ukraine (and many more scattered across central Europe and Asia) are out in the open, no need to hide them underground.
As for cleaning out the mines, I suspect that Russia will wait until Ukraine collapses. At that point the Ukies in there will have nothing left to fight for. The main thing would be to keep them tightly bottled up until then.
Rick Hansen says
Whatever is down there will be found out in due time. No need to blow it up, gas it up, flood it up, commit war crimes or anything like that, that will only trigger NATO and public opinion. Russia needs to treat it like any other territory they capture, just secure it. But not switch to a territory capture strategy yet. I’m sure they have all the records of entrances and shafts. And all the geological studies from Soviet days. When the time is right, massively secure it, seal it, cut off the power, disable the down shafts. Then let attrition take its course. Patience created the Bakhmut meatgrinder above ground, patience can create a tomb as well. Ukraine defending the hell out of this area seems to indicative of the mines value, maybe. Now Russia now has a meatgrinder and a tomb to work with, what a gift, if they remain patient and slow. Russia’s patience and deep military industry is NATO’s worst nightmare. Troops in a deep mine are no threat, patience.
Bill Osborne Jr says
With no viable air force and fixed positions then it makes since for the UAF to defend Bakhmut instead of other static fortifications. If it falls then it is over for the UAF in the Donbas.
I have no idea why anyone thinks Russian troops need to go in and dig them out. They will probably just cement them in. Cement up the exits. They could possibly get enough gas in to sort them out too. Like rats. The value of the mines surely make this a harder decision, but shut it for a couple of years, then open it, clear out the dead and reopen.
I don’t know if the desperate defense of Bakhmut is all that revealing. There’s been precious little common sense or intelligent planning by Ukraine. Instead they are doing the dumbest thing, fighting for every inch of ground. Ground is only worth defending if it has some significant military advantage. They haven’t got much else left to defend either. Once Bakhmut is under full Russian control, I’d expect the Russian leviathan they’ve been assembling will roll out and conquer the rest of the country at a rate more like what was imagined from the outset. If all those tanks being promised are coming, they might be using it to stall also. After all, not many other options.
“There’s been precious little common sense or intelligent planning by Ukraine.”
Virtually throughout “strategic planning” has not been done by Ukraine even planning at the tactical level, since their sponsors deemed Ukrainian idiots to be too proficient thereby requiring levels of exclusion/restriction to perform their planned roles , so NATO/”The United States of America” assigned planning to their own idiots presenting it as “support”, since part of the purpose not restricted to but including failsafe components, has always been the “suiciding” of Ukraine with the complicity of “evil doers” to encourage the others, since war is always strategic.
There are probably brigades of western troops there.
It needs to be filled with something highly explosive, like tanker loads of napalm gel, and then lit. The confines will focus the explosions in the right places. Who cares what’s left. Kill it and move on.
Yet the Zionist occupier in Poland has yet to trigger a war with Russia.
Polish history shows that every attack on Russia, ended with the partition of Poland.
The Zionists hate Poland very much, so they are doing everything to bring about this war. The process of bandera-zation has already taken place in Poland. They have destroyed the Poles morally. They are already ready to go kill Russian children and women with pitchforks and axes, exactly as the UPA bandits murdered
Fortunately, they will go through the meat grinder.
There is another important element in the war with Ukr.
Namely, the elimination of the fascist element , generally throughout the world, and now in Ukr.
For this purpose, permanent supply of weapons to Ukr is needed. So that the war will not end before the goals are achieved.
M. Strenk says
Salt is a civilizationally important resource; no salt, no civilized existence. Salt mines have always been a major goal for conquest. Roman soldiers (a word derived from salt) were paid, in part, in salt; that is, if they were worth their salt. Interior African tribes, who had limited access to salt traded vast quantities of gold to the Spanish and Portuguese for salt. They thought that the Europeans were insane to trade something so valuable for something so useless. The Confederacy, in part, lost their struggle because the Union was able to disrupt their supply of salt. Without refrigeration salt was vital for the preservation and transportation of foodstuffs. Even with refrigeration, which is unreliable in a war zone, salt is vital. Losing the Bakhmut salt mines would be a complete disaster for Ukraine.
salt is the spice of life
mandrake with precious clean water and pure untainted ancient rock salt
a man can live a long time with a strong essence without any loss in precious bodily fluids.
diamonds pearls and hugh quantities of gold and silver the rape of europe from ww1 and ww2.
hundreds of train wagons and carriages full to the brim.
thousands of tons of weapons ancient and modern enough to fill many war museum all in pristine condition. a treasure mandrake beyond your wildest dreams.
a treasure trinket Colossus within a salted Colossus
waiting waiting for you
come and see
Yeah, yeah, yeah… But who’s gonna fight against the Wagner psychos?
Ole C G says
I think Russia should start preparing the Salt mines for FLOODING
THAT may be the easyest way of getting rid of these Pasky UKRONAZIS
there has to be a ventilation system to/ from the outside. find the vents.
Sam Fisher says
I have another theory as to why they’re fighting so hard for Bhakmout and what may be hidden down in those mines?
Also, that 125 miles, may not all be salt mines, but something ancient and that there’s actually quite a lot of throughout the vast majority of the Donbas region of Ukraine.
Please excuse this shameless plug for my YouTube series:
But what I’m talking about will take far too long to explain in a comment section.
In short, it involves ancient technology and a little known very ancient civilisation that was situated in that very region and a race to acquire that technology between the west and Russia.
Bill Orr says
Yep … Aliens (Reptiles), their tech and nests together with a queen are down there (Kerry Cassidy)…If true, their tunnels are much deeper and connected well beyond Ukraine. https://rumble.com/v20by4o-roundtable-with-kerry-cassidy-and-gene-decode.html
Zelensky’s dresses, makeup & heels.
They could get some nasty bacterial infections if they shelter in the salts mines for too long.
“Many of the bacteria that cause severe inflammation (inflammation) of the respiratory organs love salt and settle in the surface layers of the salt walls. Even underground salt mines have very strict criteria to ensure that people do not contaminate the salt chamber with bacilli. Even in some, every three to four months they sanded off a few millimeters of the wall because of the bacilli. When their use was abandoned, it was quiet for about five years and it started again. If it’s not kept clean, it can be detrimental to health; some types of pneumococcus also stick in there. In our case, they tried to mitigate this by putting in air conditioning systems. But an artificial salt cave system that is fully air-conditioned cannot work.”
Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Speaking of chefs:
Excuse my Norwegian but as far as I can translate, this guy wasted 500 liters of something on some culinarian endeavor.
Judging from the abovementioned expertise, you can expect experts like him/xem/whatever to be in charge of the EU in the foreseeable future.
And then, our life will look like this:
Those ceilings are very tall.
There could be an underground military city.
Eight years to make those tunnels hold any number of things.
Troops could go underground to recuperate.
I’m not sure that’s a good thing.
Okay, with my troops I’d want them to have protection, shelter, and recuperation, so they keep on fighting; fight another day. Just how extensive it turns out to be is anyone’s guess at the moment.
There’s a mystery and it could be a treasure trove.
go back and look at the swiss tunnel technology used in syria by nato and zio khazar bankers. that was fresh tunneling
this place in ukrainia what they want to call new khazaria was ready long ago.
a gateway a depository, human harvest facility transport hub for live organ dealing and the white slave trade.
kiev 404 ukrainia does not have a jurisdiction so it is black hole hub for the crime families who run the world.city of london threadneedle street,wall street and the rise of hitler vatican and district of columbia whatever way you spell justinian rome slave system.
hidden history dustification is the method destroy the real history ancient technology
look what they did to alleppo
oded yinon is a big idea to rewrite history you need to zero it year
Turn the lights off. Let them run around in the dark. After a while they will surrender.
Corner Stone says
Bet it’s plenty.