I am fascinated by the misinformation and deception being spread via social media channels about famed-Russian Chef, Evgeny Prigozhin, and his mythical military prowess. The latest example of this comes courtesy of Jeff Bezos’ Washington Post:
Wagner chief offered to give Russian troop locations to Ukraine, leak says
THE DISCORD LEAKS | Yevgeniy Prigozhin said he would tell Ukraine’s military where to attack Russian troops if they pulled their own forces back from the beleaguered city of Bakhmut, where Wagner mercenaries were taking heavy losses
If there was ever any doubt that the so-called “Discord Leaks”, allegedly the handiwork of a lowly U.S. Air Force grunt, are a controlled leak that is part of an information operation, this latest wowzer should erase any skepticism.
Follow the logic here. There supposedly is a piece of Top Secret signals intelligence “proving” that Prigozhin offered to betray Russia in order to protect his own troops two months ago (remember, the “leaked” material “discovered” on 6 April by an outfit tied to British intelligence, reported on classified information disseminated around the first of March). How does Prigozhin, who has zero military experience and is not part of the Russian chain of command, have access to the order of battle of Russian forces? Not likely.
Wagner Group is not a creation of Evgeny Prigozhin. Forget about the popular Western meme that Wagner is a Russian version of the Dirty Dozen — convicts and criminals given a chance to redeem themselves by putting on a Russian uniform and risking their lives. That is an image that Russian intelligence has pushed and the gullible folks in the West have gobbled it up.
I give credence to Alexander Mercouris’ reporting on the history of Wagner — i.e., it was formed under the direction of Russia’s military intelligence outfit, the GRU, and the Russian version of the FBI, i.e., the FSB. In other words, Wagner is more akin to the CIA’s Special Activities Division (i.e., SAD), which is the military arm of the CIA, and the French Foreign Legion. Wagner, in my opinion, is not under the operational control of Prigozhin. Not only is he a master of the culinary arts but he is a damn, fine actor. Prigozhin presents the world with the image of a man teetering on the edge of madness and megolamania and the intelligence agencies in the U.S. and other NATO countries lap it up.
Wagner is a light infantry outfit and specializes in providing training to foreign soldiers and combatants. Just like the CIA’s SAD, Wagner is led by former active duty Russian military officers and non-commissioned officers. My friend, Andrei Martyanov, correctly notes that while Wagner specializes in urban combat, it is not organized nor equipped to operated as a combined arms unit. However, besides its capabilities in urban warfare, Wagner also serves a purpose in Russia’s information war against the West.
It also is important to understand that Prigozhin also takes the credit for creating the Internet Research Agency aka IRA, which the media describes as, “a notorious troll farm that the US government has sanctioned for interfering in American elections.”
Prigozhin is only too happy to take credit for the IRA. He provided the following press release in February:
“I react with pleasure,” Prigozhin said in the statement. “I’ve never just been the financier of the Internet Research Agency. I invented it, I created it, I managed it for a long time. It was founded to protect the Russian information space from boorish aggressive propaganda of anti-Russian narrative from the West.”
What next? Did Prigozhin secretly create and fund ROSATOM or the Russian Space Agency? Kinda tough to whip up a tasty omelet when you are busy setting up a military mercenary outfit and an internet intelligence information op. Prigozhin is the new Beria without all of the deviant sexual behavior, or so we are led to believe. Or maybe he is Russia’s version of General Patton.
Most Americans have bought into the myth of General Patton as the General the Nazis and Wehrmacht feared most:
From the movie Patton and from the biography on which it is partly based, Ladislas Farago’s Patton: Ordeal and Triumph, one is left with the impression that the German High Command spent most of its waking hours fretting about Patton and his whereabouts. According to Farago, after his campaign in Sicily, Patton was the Allied general the Germans regarded as “their most dangerous adversary in the field,” which led them to watch his comings and goings “like rubbernecked spectators following a tennis ball at Wimbledon.” The problem is, notes Yeide, that “there does not appear to be an iota of fact behind this claim.”
The same cannot be said of Prigozhin. He is an object of obsession in the Western media and among many of the political leaders. Prigozhin’s recent highly publicized outbursts, including expletive laden diatribes hurled at Russian military leaders, have raised hopes in NATO military and intelligence circles that maybe, just maybe, Putin’s inner circle is starting to crumble and that Russia really is nothing more than a gas-station with nukes.
I do not believe in coincidence. The fact that Prigozhin is linked so publicly with a military organization and an internet information operation that are all under the control of Russia intelligence, leads me to believe that he is an important actor in the Russian campaign to deceive and confuse the West about its true military plans and objectives. Last week, Prigozhin did his best to convince the NATO countries that Wagner was on the ropes and faced with a real risk of being overrun by newly energized and supplied Ukrainian troops. That was then.
Today, according to Prigozhin?
. . .the units of the Wagner PMCs have advanced up to 130 m in and around the so-called “Nest”.
The PMC assault groups occupied 91,000 meters.
1.69 square kilometers of Bakhmut remain under enemy control.
9 high-rise buildings were liberated during the day, 28 high-rise buildings under our control, 20 under enemy control.
The assault groups continue to carry out tasks for the final capture of Bakhmut, and also work on the flanks, where they had to stay to stop attempts to break through.”
Yeah, this is the guy that the Washington Post claims is secretly negotiating with Ukraine to sell out the Russians. Now do you understand why I’m throwing the B.S. flag?
Come on, Patton won Iwo Jima, El Alemain, Stalingrad and Kursk, as well as Gettysburg and Totttenburg Forest. All while planning Bagration and the destruction of the Death Star!
Seems to me that the fact that Prigozhin is still allowed to make 1980s WWF-style rants shows that it’s all a game. The attention paid to any incident, no matter how outrageous, to support the transparent agitprop aginst the RF, is in itself, a tell of desperation of the real situation on the ground.
Simplicius has had some good posts this weekend on some of the more relevant recent occurrences of the SMO.
Teuteburg Forest
I much prefer the Battle of Idistaviso.
Anyway, most probably the real head of Wagner is (former) 3 star general Mikhail Mizintsev (former deputy minister of defence)
Teutoburger
Anton Yelizarov colonel ex GRU is the one who commands the bakhmut theater of operations inside wagner, Prigozhin only does the psychological work and acting.
Saw some glow taint fakeness about him calling Putin a “happy grandfather” who is out of touch.
Surely these regime bootlicker enemedia comrades know that not everyone has a zero second attention span or smartphone telescreen IQ.
As a retired Army officer with extensive East Asia experience, I enjoy listening and reading Johnson’s honest informed reports. Many others seem to think they know everything or are propagandists.
When I was a child, it was pretty rough.
One of the things that kept me going and never losing hope were the stories I would read and on some rare occasions be told about the LRRP’s. The tales of the boys (absolute definition of “Men” is what the LRRP’s were as far as I heard from the stories and tales) in those outfits is what kept me going, and they were the only thing that ever came close to being what people might call my “heroes”, for I molded my entire childhood after them. Often my friend and I, or alone, would do one or two man long range recon patrols in my rather large section of woods for a 6 to 14 year old in which we absolutely had “enemy combatants” (older teenagers) who would chase us around those woods with the intent to do bodily harm. (beat us up rather badly if we were caught). IE: one time they caught me and tied me to a tree and started a fire and began to heat up sticks before my childhood friends brothers got there and rescued me. (believe it or not, that was what us always in the woods boys called “fun”, and would absolutely do it all again)
You may not understand this, and it may be before your time and rather far away from your area and time of service, but I want you to know that even though it was a cluster fuck, the fact of the existence of outfits such as the early LRRP’s (I don’t know what else to call them) and their fairly selfless exploits is one of the only things that kept me going and alive during a fairly rough period of my life as a kid.
No “thanks” given here sirs. Only my respect for absolute men such as those. Which is much greater.
It’s pure maskirovka. Proghizin has repeatedly lured Ukes/Nato into traps. Including with his latest theatrics.
He told them exactly where to penetrate. There, they chased the “running Russians” right into the “arms of Wagner. ” And then they had the tar beaten out of them.
It’s not pure maskirovka nor pure madness, though it has elements of both.
If the recent video is a pure action play by Prigozhin with tacit prior knowledge and approval by the the highest Defense and Political officials, then he deserves a bunch of Oscar awards (or equivalent in Russia).
If it’s because of temporary insanity caused by severe emotional stress, he crossed the red lines in using the expletives about the leaders and showing dead soldiers on the camera. For this he will pay a price later.
Time will clarify when things cool down or at the end of SMO.
If it’s all choreographed drama, then they are totally at a different level in terms of deception compared to the West IMO.
Surely if the West has been fooled all this time by the mediocre actor Volodomyr Zelensky, the Prigozhin stories join in the movie- scenario and could conveniently have been set up by the Russian official “propaganda” producers.
Those soldiers were very alive. Dead look nothing like that in industrial warfare. Media doesnt show the real carnage so people are fooled. But Liveleak used to before it was pulled. Let me tell you it’s not pretty – heads cut in half or missing. Bodies are softball sized pieces etc.
Maybe you should watch some telegram channels. Some recent dead show little gore, There was a Russian drone sequence that showed masses of light objects on barren soil from altitude as the camera came closer these objects turned out to be decomposing dead in grotesque positions.
Another tidbit the Russians reported awhile back that most Ukrainians causalities were from artillery shelling and most Russian causalities were from mines.
Maybe you should watch some telegram channels. Some recent dead show little gore, There was a Russian drone sequence that showed masses of light objects on barren soil from altitude as the camera came closer these objects turned out to be decomposing dead in grotesque positions.
Another tidbit the Russians reported awhile back that most Ukrainians causalities were from artillery shelling and most Russian causalities were from mines.
Maybe you should watch some telegram channels. Some recent dead show little gore, There was a Russian drone sequence that showed masses of light objects on barren soil from altitude as the camera came closer these objects turned out to be decomposing dead in grotesque positions.
Another tidbit the Russians reported awhile back that most Ukrainians causalities were from artillery shelling and most Russian causalities were from mines.
From what I understand, Progozhin is a “Putin loyalist” as is everyone else close to Putin. My guess is that there is no way that he has changed position and is still alive, let alone being nominally “in charge” of Wagner.
Progozhin has zero military background. He is a first-class troll in Russian Maskirova, along with Dmitri Medvedev, each playing different roles. These are public faces of an otherwise secretive group. Wagner is a type of special forces of the Russian military made up of volunteers and represented as a PMC to conceal losses of the Russian military in forward operations and also abroad where Russia doesn’t want to involve its regular military publicly. This is the best info I have been able to pick up anyway. So, what’s up? Maybe to “appear weak when strong.” (Sun Tzu)
DEFENSE TECHNICAL INFORMATION CENTER
Little Masquerade: Russia’s Evolving Employment Of Maskirovka
Descriptive Note: Technical Report,05 Jul 2015,26 May 2016
Corporate Author: US Army School for Advanced Military Studies Fort Leavenworth United States
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD1022096
I’d throw the BS flag just because the story came from the Washington Post, but your article gives additional reason.
I was wondering about Prigozhin, but then a few days ago remembered the Little Green Men. You remember, right? Back in 2014, as Maidan was all the rage, all of a sudden “men in green” appeared all over Crimea. And on the first day all the Ukrainian forces were disarmed. Some fought back and a few Ukrainian servicemen got killed, but mostly what happened was that the Little Green Men just appeared one day out of the blue. They were very polite, but didn’t talk much. And everyone was kind of mystified. 🙂 People (especially Europeans) were just scratching their heads unsure what to do about all this. I mean, when unexplained armed uniformed men just *appear* on streets, you’d expect somebody to DO something, but nobody did anything. xD
Now obviously, everybody was suspecting this was something Russia cooked up, but the Russians themselves were denying adamantly they had anything to do with it. They denied, explained, gave interviews, swore, hung upside down, did everything they could to convince everybody it wasn’t them. And… apparently people bought it. I myself gave them the benefit of doubt and was running with the idea that it really was aliens.
Then the referendum happened, and Crimea was incorporated into Russia and Little Green Men dissapeared. Yes, it was the Russians. The eurocrats were FURIOUS! Apparently, they got duped. I don’t know what they were thinking. Maybe they REALLY thought it was aliens, like I did. For a time afterwards, the Wikipedia article on maskirovka actually quoted the almost-bloodless takeover of Crimea as a textbook example of Russian maskirovka. xD Maybe it still does, I didn’t check. xD
This with Prigozhin appears to be just a second run of the same thing.
My other much admired misdirection of Russian military is when they sneaked four fighter jets in to Syria under the bellies of cargo jets.
The NATO cabal had no clue until they landed at the Russian airbase there.
And the very next day they started sending missiles in to the hordes of US supported and directed moderate terrorists.
As Boney M sang; “Oh, those Russians!”
During the “annexation” of the Crimea, one local serviceman in the UAF and one local anti-Kiev militiaman were killed as the result of exchange of fire during a brief night time exchange of fire.
Both of the deceased had a joint Russian Orthodox funeral service in the same church.
Such was the butcher’s bill following the bloody takeover of the Crimea Peninsula by the Evil Orcs.
I believe there were also a few casualties during the brief skirmish when Slovenia extraconstitutionally seceded from Yugoslavia with the support of the evil OTAN, God of War and Perpetual Hegemony.
Unlike the bloodthirsty Ukrainians however, unrestrained in their civilian butchery of dissidents, Yugoslav forces refused to do likewise in attempting to cower the Slovenes into surrender by relentless shelling of militia and civilian alike in their capital Ljubljana and instead recognized their right to self determination against all know rules at the time of the ‘international order’, until those rules were redefined by OTAN, their ruler of course. Turning them inside out, so to speak – dare I say, like a used condom.
Yevgeny Prigizhin was the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll in ’63.
You are conflating UFO tales with Crimea in 2014. The “little green men” appear in UFO stories. The men in Crimea were neither little nor green (only their uniforms were) and they were called “the men in green.”
The men in Crimea were neither little nor green, and might be women as far as West is concerned, because they don’t know the difference. 🙂
The Russians know because they have biologists even on their Supreme Court
We are all Larry! In fact, if an intelligence professional like Larry is fascinated, imagine the others! Fascinated and very confused! Mainly because we had never seen anything like it! Even in a propaganda war like I confess I had never watched! Regardless of the weapons on the battlefield, 50% of this war is disinformation! Far beyond the usual fog of war! Which always reminds me of the Nazi officers who left the Eastern Front directly for madhouses. And at the time there were only radios, no internet! I confess that I’ve also thought everything about Prigozhin. Especially when he began to defame Russia itself in Chechnya and Syria. But Prigozhin just might be the ultimate troll! Otherwise, he had already been removed by political and military power!
And I reconciled with Prigozhin when he began to draw Ukrainian forces to Bakhmut’s flanks with Wagner advancing on the city! And the AFU even if it didn’t want to be drawn to the flanks had to do something to show that it is alive to its donors and to divert attention from Bakhmut’s collapse! And he did what he does best, PR! Like the US, WaPO and NYT today! I have no doubt that besides all the hysteria, the Ukrainian troops in Ukraine are being totally decimated on the flanks! As they were in Bakhmut! Russian troops did what they also always do. They retreated to create an artillery bag and the Ukrainian advance has already stopped! On the north flank and on the south flank! Chapeau! And if not, I only accept corrections from Russians who are in a better position than me to analyze Prigozhin’s role!
And I never believed that Prigozhin was more than a mere spokesperson for Wagner or in lack of shells! But I believed in disagreements with the MOD! Today I think that just like in judô and without any association with Putin, please, Russia has realized that the Collective West is completely dependent on disinformation campaigns with its public opinion and is only taking advantage of these same campaigns via troll Prigozhin. Like the one Larry quotes from WaPO today! Or like the masterful radiation campaign in Khmelnitsky that will still force Ukraine to return the Challengers to the British! 😂
Please remove the exclamation mark key from your keyboard and lock it in a drawer.
I see that the topic of Prigozhin’s demarches worries people in the West. Versions of Prigozhin’s motivation diverge from “a court jester and a troll” to “treason”, in the middle – “a well-thought-out and coordinated with the leadership action to disinform the enemy.”
My opinion: not that, not another, not the third.
I will try to state the facts and arguments, and you yourself will draw conclusions about how true they are.
1. Prigozhin is neither close to Putin, nor a member of the high offices of the Kremlin. Who launched this false information – I do not know. Before the SVO, few people knew anything about Wagner and few had heard of Prigogine. The circle of Putin’s associates is very limited.
2. During the SVO, Prigozhin was allowed to recruit volunteers among prisoners and people with a criminal record. I don’t know what percentage of such people are in PMCs. The value judgment is as follows: in my region, 178 people were called up from the camps, and in total there were about 4,000 mobilized in our region. Nevertheless, according to rumors, strict orders have been established in the PMC, similar to the orders in the zone.
3. Prigozhin took upon himself the obligation to take Bakhmut at any cost and spared his people, drove them forward, regardless of losses. He accompanied his activities with a hyped PR campaign, in which almost all well-known war correspondents and bloggers were involved (for money, of course). Journalism in Russia, as elsewhere, is the second oldest profession after prostitution).
4. Prigozhin failed to take Bakhmut with a swoop. PMC Wagner, through his fault, because of his political ambitions, self-praise, lost many fighters – too many. Prigozhin began to take the blame away from himself, shifting the blame to everyone – to the lack of shells, to the Russian army, to the military-political leadership. He quarreled with all his associates and went to the dressing, lost the coast.
5. Prigozhin is a scandalous, unbalanced and absolutely cynical person. To entrust such an unworthy person with a serious campaign of disinformation of the enemy is stupid. No one in management would do that.
6. Prigozhin violated all the public and unspoken rules of conduct and moral norms in society and the army.
The biggest complaint against Prigozhin for this heinous act: taking selfies against the backdrop of fighters gathered in a pile of corpses who have families in Russia.
It is immoral. It’s impossible to justify.
7. Prigozhin, by his actions and rhetoric, brought a lot of harm to both the military campaign itself (thwarted tactical and operational plans), and the image of the army, the military leadership and Russia as a whole. The time will come – he will answer for it. Now is not the time to get into a fight. In order to protect himself and avoid responsibility for his own failures, Prigogine drew public attention to his person.
You think those bodies he showed on the floor were dead lol? Bodies in industrial warfare don’t look that pristine. They are missing heads, limbs or are in 20 pieces.
That’s just silly talk. Sounds like a macaw with a so so squawk.
Where were you in combat to be qualified to make such a statement? No watching telegram videos doesn’t count.
“. Prigozhin took upon himself the obligation to take Bakhmut at any cost”
No, he did not. he is not the commander of Wagner. This is a well known fact.
Hello and thank you very much Gera. To be honest, I was really waiting for Gera to know the thoughts of someone intelligent from Russia about Prigozhin! Because there’s also a lot of Strelkov-worshipping shit on the net! Who every day think that Russia will collapse economically and militarily in Ukraine! But they never look at US and EU economic indicators. Anyway, we also talked about them both! And I also heard from Dimitri Babitch – who I respect a lot – who says that Prigozhin was lost as the narcissistic Strelkok. When I thought the same of Prigozhin.
And which as Gera knows, I was once very close to Gera thoughts. Because one thing are operational traps and quite another thing its to gratuitously defame Russia’s past and its highest military spheres in the present. When I was also completely convinced of the relationship between the hysteria from that horrible video of Prigozhin and the fact that he had not managed to free Bakhmut until May, 9th. But I don’t see the MOD in a hurry to move from Bakhmut where it wants to continue to erode Ukrainian strength. Or does anyone think that with Bakhmut completely destroyed if the MOD wanted to fast forward to Kramatorsk it wouldn’t destroy 4 more buildings? And now on a flank it was as if Prigozhin was once again heading the Ukrainians towards their destruction.
Nor do I believe the version that these attacks on the flanks are to withdraw the troops trapped in Bakhmut?! Now? A bit late! Kiev doesn’t care about cannon fodder on Bakhmut and maybe they even die more on the flanks. At most Kiev doesn’t want to see them “evacuated” like in Mariupol and the nationalists themselves kill them in the back! Observers often forget that Russia never destroyed the Dnieper bridges. Because Russia wants to demilitarize Ukraine on the most favorable battleground for Russia!
And as Gera also says, there is nothing in Prigozhin personal background that recommends him as a good person or even as a good warrior! Prigozhin is an ex-convict, period! But in this case we will always come to the inevitable question, why does Russia allow him to continue to speak? And Gera answers because is it not time to drive Prigozhin away? No State depends on one man, much less on a madman who says every day that the Russian Army is collapsing in Ukraine. But I really appreciated Gera’s thoughts. I guess we’re all going to have to wait for any more definitive judgment regarding Prigozhin. Like checking if he returns after Wagner goes to rest after Bakhmut, for example. Many thanks and all the best Gera.
Prigozhin, the court jester, keeps both would-be traitors and enemy entertained and distracted while Putin, the Great Czar, employs his devious secret warriors to sneak up on the enemy and defeat him?? ! Wow! Even if this fantasy is false, Prigozhin could make a hell of a lot of money after the war by launching adventure thrillers, children’s comics depicting the Wagner heroes, movie franchises and television serials that embellish these Western and Russian stories about him. I really both envy and admire him!
I agree that it has to be a bunch of bull – it’s all getting tossed around out there and the guy is still walking free. Simple logic dictates it can’t be true as nobody would allow it, let alone Putin. I’ve been following this and wonder what exactly is the game here?
Is this a case of misdirection? The WaPo reported their interview with Zelenskyy where he discussed Prigozhen meeting with Ukrainians. Odd to throw that out there too, unless it’s to try to discredit Prigozhen. The coke head wouldn’t know the truth if it shit in his face.
As my dad told me growing up, “don’t believe all of what you hear and half of what you see.” Something’s odd about all this, and I’m definitely interested in the ideas that get put out here. What’s the real game here? Is it a juvenile attempt to discredit Prigozhen and create distrust among the Russians? I’m not thinking they’re that gullible, and I suspect Prigozhen isn’t stupid enough to try any nonsense out in the open like this.
Is Prigogine a traitor? I think no. Just a bastard.
“…don’t believe all of what you hear and half of what you see.”
A picture is worth a thousand words… All of them false.
Yes it is hilarious entertainment serving as distraction, and as you point out it is clear evidence of the chronic idiocy and incompetence of Western MSM reporting.
Prigozhin has been engaged as nominal head of Wagner to ‘cook up’ a storm of misleading disinformation and all the suckers are swallowing it hook line and sinker. Battlefield Reality TV Russian style.
It also seems he might have been let loose to rattle some cages to focus attention on what might be some pockets of incompetence if not corruption in the Russian military (which no military in any major conflict has not had to deal with to a greater or lesser degree; with Ukraine currently being world leader in the field).
Prigozhin is having a wild time stirring the pot.
I think it is partly because of the American’s (and thus the US influenced West) proclivity to individualise things like decision making, heroism etc. In American view, everything comes down to an individual, “a hero to save the day” so to speak. Just like Patton which is totally ridiculous. A general without an army is just a lonely man. It is his army that wins the battle, and a series of winning battles that wins the war.
I say this because I’ve been living in Asia for 5 decades now, and I notice this is one of the greatest difference in thinking. Asians think as a community, and therefore when interpreting the actions of others, tends to think that the decision behind is of the entire opposite party. An individual himself will not matter much. Thus Prigozhin’s meltdown and ranting is that of just at most an crazed individual. The actual situation of the conflict? Asians will just look at the numbers.
Just my 2 cents.
“Asians think as a community”
You mean that some individuals say or do certain things and other individuals agree with them and together they make up the “community”?
I’ve never seen a “community” think or act. But everyday I see individuals think and act, alone or in concert with one another.
Seconded. In Japan, kindergardeners are taught to ask what everyone else wants before making a decision. “If we all cross the street together, no one gets hurt.” Thus, they are trained to think through the others’ eyes, don’t do anything accidentally that would cause the other to lose face and destroy harmony, and they have a Theory of Mind. Similarly, witness any of the statements coming from high-level Chinese diplomats, which chide rather than insult.
American leaders are narcissists who are completely unable to imagine the feelings and thoughts of The Other. They have no Theory of Mind. All they know is dominance, insults, drama, and subjugation. See: Blinken vs. China; Nuland; NS-2.
Therefore, America loses big in the long term. Vietnam only became an economic powerhouse AFTER America left. Bombing TSMC to “save it from the Chinese” will wipe out nVIDIA, Apple, and USA’s AI hardware.
America is like Wile E. Coyote, who never learns after selfish, narcissistic violent failure after failure.
“don’t do anything accidentally that would cause the other to lose face,” was this what Imperial Japan did to Korean women and the Chinese mainland?
You see this is why one must make a distinction between a people ans its government.
I admire the Japanese culture and have a great love for their sense of beauty and minimalism, yet they do have, like everyone including Americans, a less than bright side or shadow.
“By hook or by crook, we SHALL have Crimea and call it our nook.”
I agree with your belief that the human desire for narrative results in too much attribution of history to single personalities. In fact, this is much more excessive when the media refer to the entire Russian nation, culture and administration as “Putin”.
There is a jump of logic where you connect over-emphasis on figureheads to your belief that Asians (which includes a vast diversity of cultures) are more community minded. If you said they are less individualistic, I could agree with you. I would go as far as to say in many east Asian cultures it is considered dangerous or risky to draw too much attention to one’s self. However, my observation of a fair bit of time spent in China was that there was no shortage whatsoever of material self interest among people there.
Col McGregor on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWXlMi95ylo
The french foreign Legion is a comparable… mercenaries swearing allegiance to a country.
This “worry” of emotionalism from on the ground fighters and their leaders is mute. People that have bodies dropping around them…that are in a hard fight..will be emotional.
Wagner doesn’t have an insulated press secretary…the guy that runs the outfit. …he might set a tourniquet on a severed limb in the morning and rant for more supplies in the evening.
It is honest war. The west …they desire a finished and polished news product. Well… F-ck the queer west.
Death shall have it’s day…and the day belongs to Russia.
The West has what it wished for. Full stop.
Hmm, Prigozhin is saying some pretty inflammatory things about powerful people, so why is he still there? We also believe he is friendly with Putin, and you can’t get a better connection than that. We see the right supports his views about corruption, lack of will for the war etc, so why doesn’t Putin drop the hammer on him as this is also embarrassing for Russia? Could it be that there is some truth in what he says and Putin is onboard flushing out some dead wood? Even Escobar is giving him some oxygen. Who knows? Perhaps time will reveal all.
Aristotle wrote that Plato had told him that Socrates once said: “The only thing that I know is that I don’t know anything, and sometimes, I’m not even sure of that”
Made my head spin so much I had to clutch my chair!
Indeed. Sort of a self-destructing paradigm.
heh. Every non pozzed deeply contemplative type gets this heh heh heh.
In fact, every single one has probably said it or similar (to themselves and others) before they knew others already did LOL.
It is absolutely – one – of the very first things we learn.
We should avoid suggestibility and distraction proceeding from theatrical displays. There’s an objective aspect to all this. Gen. Surovikin has been preparing his fire traps since last fall presumably following intelligence of a grand offensive in the spring (??). This is pure lunacy on the part of the neocon managed war. But now saner voices in the West are starting to make themselves heard. They’re saying that offensive war is a disaster and that the Ukrainians should either delay till they are strong enough, or better, go on the defensive like the Russians. One Mariupol after another. Is this to the liking of the Russian command? I think not. Hence Pregoshin loudly telling the neocon shills that Russia is weak, moral dismal, high command corrupt and .. and .. HERE’S YOUR CHANCE!! Attack!!! In the Western media the ‘realists’ are starting to sound off. Prigoshin is telling them to go back to La La land and just keep making stuff up as is their wont.
Prigozhin is a businessman. He is like the “owner” of a high-level hockey team. Being an owner, it doesn’t mean he can actually play hockey.
Excellent as always, Larry !
The slightly worrying thing about Prigozhin’s theater is that some intelligent and clear-eyed commentators like the respectable Pepe Escobar seem to fall for it. It would not matter if the NATO delusional circus is the only entity building their fantasy on the Russian chef’s kitchen outburst. But when otherwise clear-eyed writers starting parroting the same, it becomes rather dispiriting.
a different point of view- interview of the Donbass Cowboy (Russell Bentley)
Guess time will tell
https://roloslavskiy.substack.com/p/red-list-23-facing-down-disaster
regards,
ralph
Imho, the timing of these “disasters” is too uncanny – just when wagner is about to take the entire bakhmut and the material for the “counter offensive” is on.
Its just a taunt / dis information to get the ukr forces to continue impaling themselves on Russian defences. Attacking forces always suffers greater casualties!
In this era of complete isr strike capabilities on both sides, I don’t want to be marching across the Ukrainian plains and get slaughtered…
At the same time, troops are still being trained and the global economic forces begin to re align with multi polarity and the acceleration of de-dollarization…
Optically, it also makes any peace negotiations easier… Any further taking of land would be a reason for escalation by the West, putting more lives at risk.
As for the downing of aircraft near berdyansk, I don’t think it’ll lead to an escalation – these are expected casualties in war. The provision of storm shadow cruise missiles though – certainly gives Russia more reason to strike harder!
We’re really sleep walking into global disaster.
From what I understand Prigozhin and Kadyrov are two competing Warlords.
In this conflict Kadyrov had his glorious victory in Marioupol, whereas Prigozhin has yet to have his own big win with Bakhmut. I have never heard of these two units fighting together in coordination in the same urban warzone. There is clearly some kind of competition going on between them where Ukrainian towns get historically related to the Warlords who liberated them… like trophies.
I suspect there might even be a bit of jealousy between these two illustrous and exurberant close friends of Putin…
just my 2 cents…..
A small bit of jealousy can be a good motivator. A lot can kill you.
The west is high on Prigozhin, the new drug in town
Desperate folks reach far down the alligator’s gullet in search of sustenance.
Certainly seems to be ‘pants on fire’ reporting.
All the major players are actors – Zolinsky, Blinking, Marone, vonder Lying, et al. And worn out / beyond sell-by date, Paddy Bidet is in truth, a japonise AI robot prototype.
And I never knew Patton (winner at Agincourt, Waterloo, Ypres, . . ) was a chef.
You live and learn, eh?
And where does Biletsky stand in this lineup of gallery rogues?
Seems he rose pretty quickly from Bavarian beer hall brawler to Herr Komandant of the SS faction of the AFU.
The main problem with Prigoshin is that he undermines morale and authority, which is not a small problem in war, so even if that is all just maskirovka, I am not sure its worth it…
Alexs from Black Mountain Analysis (former contributor to The Saker) went into detail about Prigozhin’s past, from petty crook to hotdog seller and asserts that he was recruited by FSB for work within the underground criminal fraternity.
Explains his rise from hotdog stand to restaurant chain owner to catering for the Kremlin.
Very plausible.
Prigozhin definitely has organizational talent. That is his main asset, and not a particularly common one.
Yes, and remember, Albert Speer, an architect, was the best war time armaments production leader on any side in WWII. Vocation, training or background don’t mean squat when it comes to these things. People will always surprise you as to what they’re really good at.
Russia, China, Iran are all playing master chess!! Heck, the Persians invented the game while the Russians and Chinese are the tops in the world currently. They can see 4 moves ahead while the nimwits in the West are stuck playing checkers and tic tac toe barely able to see beyond the tips of their big hooked noses.
Wagner, as Larry states, has a ton more underneath it than meets the eye and I’ll go out on a limb here and use my arcane knowledge to make this prediction: the Russian MoD will use them in the not-too-distant future to infiltrate Europe’s capitals and centres of power and decision making so as to take out a lot of the Western elite trash and its vassals, obviously aided and abetted by many native patriots who will be more than willing to assist and guide the Wagner boys.
In the meantime, Russia has more than likely destroyed a huge depot of recently arrived uranium-depleted shells stored in a warehouse in the far West of Ukraine. What does that say? Russian inside intel is a lot better than many can even immagine.
Way back in Soviet times their intel was superior.
It makes me wonder, does that have anything to do with true patriotism Vs arse kissing/ladder climbing as in the “west”?
It certainly does, you’re right.
Press game is wicked right now ; it’s a kind of “we are weaker than you” contests between the Pentagon trolls and Prigozhin trolls… while fight rages-on and bodies are piling-up.
Hellensky tour 2023 in all the EU capital continues to demilitarize western Europe while the US promises big and delivers only greenbacks …
The reality of a stupid game were none can’t be reelected without finishing the war and none agreed on how to finish it is just a bigger pile of cadavers… as if they cared.
I believe Pregozhin held the concession to the Kremlin’s restaurant (maybe the canteen even)?
I sometimes wonder if he got brought into his present position because the Kremlin patrons of his eatery got to know his personality well and the intelligence bosses created the role for his psychological profile? “You’ve met the cantankerous boss of catering, chief? He’s clever, alert, a laugh and a patriot and has good rapport with Vladimir Vladimirovich. Perhaps he could be useful…”.
Or something else along these lines, of a man fitting a need.
Was it not Sun Tzu who said:
“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”
Ladies & germs, I give you Evgieny Progozhian! Don’t forget to tip your server!
“Tyler Durden” at Zerohedge 05/14/2023 published two articles concerning Prigozhin. The one entitled “With Bakhmut Hanging In Balance, Will Putin Order Takedown Of Wagner Boss?” cherry picks Kagan/ Institute for the Study of War narrative suggesting dissension around Putin to further the US State Department/ Nuland regime change lunacy. Over time, I’ve noticed Zerohedge appearing to iterate the US Ukraine narrative. I’ve unsubscribed from Zerohedge Durden Dispatch as an unreliable source.
Anyone who takes what the piss tank Institute for the Study of War has to say seriously needs to have his brains examined.
“Zerohedge”
I’m not going to pick on Zerohedge alone here, because damned near all of them do it.
Companies like that are all about making a buck. Instead of being honest about it, sometimes various companies will “exaggerate” (lie their hineys off) about what is going on, to push people into thinking about making purchases.
So lets take a random business model. Lets say… oh I dont know… Lets pick a random one with no relation to our discussion…
Lets Say it’s the – The “Survival Supply” industry. 😉
Sometimes various companies in the survival supply industry will “amplify” various stories or articles, some of which they write themselves, in order to get peeps riled up thinking they need to purchase survival supplies due to X reason or Y reason, instead of the age old common sense reason of having 6 months to a years worth of supplies handy at all times in case of fire flood wind earthquakes war or whatever.
So expecting companies to act honestly may indeed be what was once a handy and acceptable practice of belief, yet in todays wicked society only marks you as a fool if you run around naively thinking that most businesses and business men and woman of today are the gentlemen and ladies of honesty, integrity and honor that propagandists lead everyone to believe once existed in this nation. (they were always the rarity folks)
Except for those instances wherein some nations may be undergoing some sorts of spiritual chastisement and “coming to God” moments, the reality is that the majority of businesses and their owners and employees will almost always lie by omission, or use any other tactic involving “not quite the exact truth” in order to help sell their product.
Is the world going to end in fire?
yes.
So I should buy that 249 dollar bug out bag kit with a 3,500 dollar pallet of a years worth of supplies now then huh?
No.
You should already have a garden, water filtration, alternative power, and the rest. in the last 50 years I cant even begin to tell you how many times we have lost power here for more than a few hours. the flood of 2009 here being a prime example.
slowly build up to it over time if your head has been in the sand and you’re just now getting started.
It’s about families. Raise your kids with knowledge and experience if you are able to. Have a canning weekend (or whatever) with the whole family, then movies and pizza or whatever fun thing after all of that work.
So unless you can see that asteroid that “is going to hit the planet in September” (my god, those were some funny videos), then dont go drop 3000 dollars at your local supply store. For the very people claiming that the sun is going supernova on july the 35th, right after the aliens land and pick you all up to escape to Nibiru, have a 90+ percent probability of being related to the Survival Supply store peeps that are advertised in the very same article, story, or video.
Remember. this applies to all business models. We are simply using “Survival Supply” as a random model picked for possibly having no relation to Zerohedge (lol, lmao)
Your thesis makes perfect sense and plays right into the stupid belief that the neocons have: that Putin is about to fall and be replaced by a “Yeltsin like” figure.
I’m having a hard time with the Internet Research Agency that only spent about £100k on the 2016 US elections, some of which they got back in ads on their own pages and half of which was spent after the election. They were charged and the charges withdrawn when they got to court as their lawyers requested to see the evidence….
Prigozhin may or may not have been involved, but not Russian intelligence. It was an operation on the scale of and the importance of a Restaurant. And much the same as for Wagner, what ever claims Prigozhin may have about its aims and achievements can be safely ignored.
My take is slightly different, no doubt he is a part of an information operation but his latest antiques about leaving if not given enough ammo is preparation for his bid for the office. It would have been equally beneficial for him if he were to be fired or gets the ammo he wants. I think he scored quite some points with the Russian public with that
I’m reminded of a great 80s movie – Hunt for Red October – “Russian’s dont take a shit without a plan” of course it’s all Masquerade. Prigozhin’s pulled AFU into meat grinder over and over with it and they still don’t learn.
Here is a hypothesis inspired by your post…
1. The globohomo relies on “narrative control” and “big lie” drama. Zelenski himself is an example of this.
2. They actually believe their bullshit…evidence?
2.a Anderson cooper on CNN apologizing to his audience for the Trump debate. Cooper’s inversion of reality is stunning. There is no shared connection between his perspective and ours.
3. How do you fight this? How about agree and amplify…
4. You “up the narrative” with bigger histrionics and lies.
Like a dog to its vomit, globohomo has to engage.
TL;DR; we may be witnessing a legitimate weakness of the enemy.
If true, “flood the zone with bullshit” may be a legitimate tactic of what Michael Yon calls #InformationWarfare
Hell, does anyone want to make the claim that maybe just maybe Russia hit Ukraine with a tactical nuke in the western part of the country??? The ammo dump with supposed uranium depleted shells from the UK went up in a plume that very very eerily seemed a nuclear one. Could have been a very very strong warning to the evilly demented goblins in London and Washington.
Russians using a nuke on Slavic lands is a wet dream of those goblins, which is why the media they control is constantly masturbating about it.
Conventional mushroom detonations are black and orange. Nuclear mushroom clouds are white. Have no fear.
Comforting to know except the blasted spent uranium particles in the air!
“WHAT ARE WE TO MAKE OF PRIGOZHIN AND THE WAGNER GROUP?”
Closed “questions” facilitating closed “answers” facilitating closed “questions”.
Well done.
I’ll go back and read the rest. I
only made it this far when I had the hysterical fit of laughter fall upon me suddenly, attempting to throw me backwards out of my chair.
If ever I saw any inkling of the proof needed to show a body of jurors at a trial that there is a huge possibility we are indeed living in a simulation run by something/someone with a gigantic sense of humor, this sentence here is it — “Wagner is more akin to the CIA’s Special Activities Division (i.e., SAD)”.
LOL!!! Did the CIA really name it SAD? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
I cant even believe it, the tears wont let me get back to the article, and the laughter just will. not. stop.
Larry, I was really having a bad time of it this morning. Thank you so much for this.
Alright, back to the article now. errr – after I go wipe the still running tears of laughter out of my eyes.
Excellent article so far.
JB
My personal opinion is that this whole “Prigozin-affaire” is some sort of psy-op/deception orchestrated by the russian intelligence. The fact that western-MSM are talking about him over and over again may indicate that this psy-op is indeed working.
But who’s the intended audience for this misinfo …
1. Russian officials or public? No because WaPo cites ‘U.S. intel sources’ and by now, Russians know how unreliable that is.
2. U.S. public? Yes. The one superpower our current Intel agencies have is manipulating U.S. public opinion.
“What are we to Make of Prigozhin and the Wagner Group?”
oringbay
Having had to deal with know-it-alls and the detrimental and sometimes devastating results of their actions much of my, especially early life, I make an extreme effort to avoid that behavior by asking a lot of questions of people more educated, intelligent and wise than me. When Xi Jinping visited President Putin something was said about ending what has been going on for the last 100 years. This takes building a coalition with many countries aligned against the west(deep state). Wouldn’t Prigozhin’s behavior insert a level of unnecessary confusion and uncertainty with said countries? I understand the first casualty of war is truth and the immediate Russian need is to win the war in Ukraine but these other countries read the press reports too and may not know what to think of the situation.
Hi mike
“but these other countries read the press reports too and may not know what to think of the situation.”
These things are not pushed so hard in non western media. It may not be apparent because many “Eastern” news sources easily available in the West are actually just extensions of Western Intel Community controlled News Sources.
Take a look at various sources of differing propaganda intended for different audiences such as the Jakarta Post, India Today or Al Mayadeen in English if you wish to see the proof that Eastern nations are fed a different view than Western populations. I havent fully checked any of those, but without looking I doubt you would easily find anything about “Prigozhin’s behavior” being blasted from the front pages.
How do I, a nobody with nothing and no training know this? –
One of the things that I do is kind of an amateur analysis of various propaganda outlets as it relates to the way in which various forces disseminate info, false or true or mixtures of both, to their intended audiences. The first and still ongoing war kind of forced my hand in this endeavor too. For it is necessary for me to understand and develop my own proficiency in discernment in order to navigate the web of lies dark forces consistently pump into the narrative.
Sure, I pretend to be a scraggly toothed inbred paranoid redneck dumbass, Especially on video, but if I want to I can drop that disguise in under a second. Yet I seldom see any reason to do so in a world slap full of the retarded npc’s that America is full of.
This is how all of this is so easily recognizable by me. Because I do it too. For the same reasons that Russia is too. To mask my efforts in this minimum of a 6000 year long ongoing war.
You may already know all of this. please take no offense at my post. I put them here for other readers too when I see an opportunity to show how little I know, yet which may still be helpful to those who are newly aware to this world of lies and manipulation.
All the best.
Thanks JB. I guess living in the middle of all this constant propaganda by the state run news I assume too much about people who don’t live in the west. Maybe I should travel more.
“I understand the first casualty of war is truth and the immediate Russian need is to win the war in Ukraine but these other countries read the press reports too and may not know what to think of the situation”
Press reports are for the ignorant masses. Russia’s allies at the strategic level will know what is theatre and what is real.
“I understand the first casualty of war is truth ….”
“Beginings” of lateral processes are difficult to determine particularly when obfuscated by reliance on binaries limiting perception within linear constructs thereby precluding perception –
Mr. Rumsfeld’s “unknown unkowns” refer.
“Press reports are for the ignorant masses.”
These are the hopes of some who mistakenly deem themselves to not be part of “the ignorant masses” but exceptional, thereby precluding consideration of :
Datastreams have utilities for those with facilities of increasing utilities –
Mr. Rumsfeld’s “unknown unknowns” refer.
“Russia’s allies at the strategic level will know what is theatre and what is real.”
Omniscience is never an option since change is a constant and time and tide wait for no man/no woman/or any phenomenon/phenomena.
“asking a lot of questions”
Knowledge is a function of framing, sharing and testing open questions in co-operation.
” asking a lot of questions of people more educated, intelligent and wise than me” is a tool in conditioning “co-operation” and “knowledge”.
Hence:
“MirrorGazers says
15 May 2023 at 08:20
“WHAT ARE WE TO MAKE OF PRIGOZHIN AND THE WAGNER GROUP?”
Closed “questions” facilitating closed “answers” facilitating closed “questions”.
Well done.”
and various illustrations in the contributions of many “reactors” to this thread immersed in prevalent notions of “divisions of labour”.
Larry, late news !!
Not related to the subject upon, but terrible for the inhabitants of that peaceful place ! 2023 05 15
“…Radiation Levels Surge in Khmelnytskyi, Ukraine, Following Targeting of British Depleted Uranium Ammunition Depot by Russian Forces
In a shocking turn of events, the peaceful city of Khmelnytskyi in Ukraine has become the epicenter of an escalating environmental crisis…”
“…local authorities scrambling to contain the radiation and safeguard the affected population. Emergency response teams have been deployed to assess the extent of the damage and initiate measures to mitigate the growing threat. However, as time passes, the radiation levels in Khmelnytskyi and its surrounding areas show no signs of abating, exacerbating fears for the health and well-being of residents…”
https://bnn.network/watch-now/radiation-nightmare-unleashed-khmelnytskyi-ukraine-battles-environmental-catastrophe-after-targeted-attack/
What I get from Telegram, is that Prighozin is just a figurehead. Wagner is completely subordinated to the Russian MOD. Thus Russian equipment & ordnance. The core of Wagner is apparently Spetsnaz, with Donbas militia (better pay) & foreigners (Serbians). Discipline is draconian & that extends to officers.
Wagner assault teams in Bakhmut are 8 men, apparently that’s a result of the information rich environment. Modern urban combat as being fought now, is probably a new game. I think of Wagner as ‘storm troops’; dedicated, proficient & they die like flies!
Alex at Black Mountain Analysis re Wagner & Prighozin (an opinion piece).
https://bmanalysis.substack.com/p/opinion-piece
WaPo is like a 2yr old, ignorant of the process, proudly showing off a piece of recently created fecal matter: “Wagner chief offered to give Russian troop locations to Ukraine, leak says.” Try some interpretive context: Opposition leader offers to share prime target coordinates with enemy. Enemy is stupid enough to train & fire guns and missiles on ‘false’ targets. Opposition leader, in turn, now targets and eradicates enemy’s gun’s and missile launchers as they have painted their location in bright bull’s eyes.
I had the impression that Bakhmut was about to fall and that the Ukrainian armed forces would concentrate on an offensive probably in the south and with little chance of making a success of that. And then we see Wagner nearly giving up and the Russian forces on the flanks ready to to flee when the Ukrainians appear – attacking in a direction that promises no operational advantage and weakening that great offensive that already was too weak.
Ukrainians have the impression that they are winning the war, for real.
Cheers Larry… Any news on the Chechens arriving to take over from Wagner? Or was this part of the script? Thank you, Sir.
Well, it did not happen. I think just one more piece of disinformation.
The Ukrs are taking the bait! I reacted on Twitter to Olga Lautmann of the Kiev Independant, saying Prighozin is renegade! The final Ukr assault will be Babushkas with knitting needles thrust forward, with nazis pushing them onward.
If indeed there was depleted uranium in the warehouse, iodine won’t help.
https://t.me/putingers_cat/5374