If you want to understand why the UK and Canada are so hard over in their support for Ukraine, you have to look back to the end of World War II. Ukrainians were recruited and inducted into the Waffen-SS Division “Galicia”, which was formed by the Nazis in mid-1943 in World War II in order to support the failing regime of Adolf Hitler. The Ukrainian Central Committee supported this idea with enthusiasm despite the cost of collaboration with the totalitarian regime and its criminal nature.
Galicia’s governor-general, Otto Wachter, approached Himmler with a proposal to create a frontline combat division from Galician recruits. After speaking with Hitler, Himmler gave Wachter the go-ahead and ordered the creation of the 14th Waffen-SS Grenadier Division Galicia. Despite Himmler’s position as the head of the SS, he encountered opposition to the idea. Erich Koch, Karl Wolfe (Waffen-SS liaison officer on Hitler’s staff) and SS General Kurt Daleuge (Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia) believed that the weapons supplied to such a unit would be turned on the Germans. Himmler stood firm, though, and the Galicia division was established. He had two reasons for doing so: the loss of manpower after the defeat at Stalingrad meant the Reich desperately needed new formations; and he had a fear that disaffected Ukrainian youths would join the underground movement, i.e. the UPA.
I discussed this previously in my post, What Our Fathers Did–A NAZI Legacy in Ukraine. Otto von Wachter was the head Nazi governing Ukraine. His counterpart, Hans Frank, presided over Poland and set up the extermination camps that murdered at least 50% of the Jews exterminated during the Holocaust. Ukrainians, primarily from the the western part of current Ukraine, joined and formed a SS Division.
As early as July 1943, the Waffen-SS Division “Galicia” was sent to the front, where it was defeated at the battle of Brody; after that, a part of the division (survivors) was reformatted and sent to Slovakia, where the soldiers took part in hostilities against the participants of the Slovak uprising, as well as in Poland, against the Home Army. After another reformatting the unit found itself in Austria, now as the 1st Ukrainian Division of the Ukrainian National Army; it was there that the division soldiers laid down their arms in the Western occupation zone. Most of them lived abroad afterwards.
Another account elaborates:
The 14th Waffen-SS Grenadier Division was formed in mid-1943 from 80,000 applicants. The best 13,000 were selected and the rest were used to form police regiments. From its inception, UPA members infiltrated the unit. Despite this, it was trained and equipped and passed out with a strength of 18,000 men. Like other Slav units, the division’s commander, SS-Brigadeführer Fritz Freitag, and his officers were all German. In June 1944, the division was part of Army Group North when it was committed to its first and only major battle – in the Brody-Tarnow Pocket – which almost destroyed it. Following this engagement, the division numbered only 3000 men. After a period of rest and refitting, the division participated in several half-hearted anti-partisan operations in Slovakia and Slovenia before surrendering in Austria in May 1945.
So, what happened to the survivors? The Pope intervened at the end of the war and ensured the remnants of the Ukrainian SS Division were not surrendered to the Russians. Instead of going to the Russian Gulags, many of the survivors emigrated to the UK and Canada. These Ukrainians had a dark history:
There is unequivocal evidence that that some units of the Galician Division in Slovakia did commit war crimes during their service for the Nazis and that there were serious problems with their discipline and conduct during their suppression of the Slovak National Uprising. Some of the Galician units were involved in terrible atrocities throughout their existence, in Brody district, in Poland and in Slovakia.
Many of the personnel volunteered to serve in Slovakia, hoping to find friends and relatives among a large group of refugees from Galicia that had been admitted to Slovakia shortly before the uprising.[23]: 62 The first unit, a battlegroup formed from one battalion of the 29th regiment with auxiliary units, arrived 28 September 1944. Eventually all divisional units were transferred to Slovakia. From 15 October 1944 they formed two Kampfgruppe, Wittenmayer and Wildner. (Both of approx reinforced battalion strength)The division operated in coordination with a kampfgruppe from the SS Division Horst Wessel, whilst on paper the SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger was subordinated directly to it but its commander ignored all instructions he received and continued to act indendently, the Vlasov detachment and other SS and SD formations until 5 February 1945.[24][page needed][25] According to Slovak historian K. Fremal, the division’s “members were helping in anti-partisan, repressive, and terrorist actions and committed murders and other excesses” [23]:
The Morning Star provides more insight into the creation and end of the Galizia Division:
For example, following the announcement of the Galizia Division’s formation, Volodymyr Kubiyovych, head of the Ukrainian Central Committee in nazi-occupied Krakow, wrote: “Today, for Ukrainians in Galicia, is a very historic day, because in today’s Act of State one of the most coveted wishes of the Ukrainian people is realised — to fight against Bolshevism with weapons in our hands… This wish was the result of the deeper conviction, that it is our duty not to stay neutral in the great fight for building the new European order, and what we can do for the victory of the new Europe… This historic day was made possible by the conditions to create a worthy opportunity for the Ukrainians of Galicia, to fight arm in arm with the heroic German soldiers of the army and the Waffen-SS against Bolshevism, your and our deadly enemy. We thank you from our heart. Of course we ought to thank the Great Fuehrer of the united Europe for recognising our participation in the war, that he approved your initiative and agreed to the creation of the Galicia division.”
Canada’s Deputy Prime Minister, Chrystia Freeland, is the grand daughter of a man who collaborated with the Nazis:
In Jan. 26, 2022, in the midst of Russia’s preparations to invade Ukraine, Canada’s Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland issued a statement outlining why Canada—home to the largest Ukrainian diaspora outside Russia—would support Ukraine unconditionally, outlining a Manichean view of a “struggle between democracy and authoritarianism.” “Canadians—our own parents and grandparents—fought and died,” she continued, “to establish a rules-based international order during and after the Second World War.”
Freeland’s Ukrainian grandfather on her mother’s side, Michael Chomiak, did nothing of the sort. During the War, he edited Krakivski Visti, a Nazi propaganda rag in occupied Krakow that was printed on a press confiscated from a Jewish newspaper.
Grandpa Chomiak’s collaboration with the Nazis is indisputable:
Chomiak’s records show he was trained in Vienna for German espionage and propaganda operations, then promoted to run the German press machine for the Galician region of Ukraine and Poland during the 4-year occupation. So high-ranking and active in the Nazi cause was Chomiak that the Polish intelligence services were actively hunting for Chomiak until the 1980s – without knowing he had fled for safety to an Alberta farm in Canada.
The Nazi legacy in the Ukraine lives on in the UK and Canada. The grandchildren of those men have not rejected the sordid history of their ancestors, they have embraced it. Keep this in mind when you consider the exhortations from Great Britain and Canada to embrace the Ukrainian cause. There is a Nazi lineage behind it.
Thanks for this. I am very aware of some of this sordid legacy and it is useful to have more details laid out clearly.
My understanding is that various of the Neo Con “elites” have similar ancestries and that this likely colours their sentiments. Not to mention that some of the EU and WEF leaders have interesting ancestries too!
I suspect too that fighting Bolshevism really meant fighting Russians in the minds of these people in the 1940s too. Just as fighting for “freedom” is really about fighting Russians today. Raw tribalism and nationalism is at the root of much of this conflict: magnified by the west, of course.
As an apprentice carpenter working in Calgary Alberta I knew a lot of Ukrainian “DP’s” who came here after the war. They were serious, hard men … no joking around with them and it was never comfortable having a drink with them after work.
Later in my career my company did work for a Ukrainian land developer in Ontario. He was that sterotypical immigrant who came here after the war and started out with nothing but a wheelbarrow and built it into a thriving ready mix concrete / land development business.
He was a brooding barrel chested nearly silent man with huge scarred mitts on him that looked like they could easily crush a skull. His wife did all the talking and she was the scariest human I’ve ever met. She’d walk across a job site and miss NOTHING. If there was someone she’d never seen before on a job she’d get someone … usually one of her sons … to check them out. If she addressed you it was a command and you better have the right answer fast or you were down the road kicking stones. I had a lot of respect for them and the cheques never bounced.
Contrast these people with the Ukrainians I worked with who came here post 1991. Lots of young electricians and masons. Happy to talk and joke around if their English was good enough … none of that tough edge and mystery the guys who came in the ’50’s had. Many of them engineers or technicians who were working in the trades but really wanted a path to work in their chosen field who would invariably turn the conversation around to their resume probing for contacts to advance their careers.
Gracias por el artículo, Larry.
Es excelente.
Hace unos días leí otro buen artículo sobre este asunto.
Te dejo enlace por si te apetece echarle un ojo.
https://es.topwar.ru/171618-simvolika-divizii-ss-galichina-popala-pod-zapret-na-ukraine.html
Un abrazo.
People have been Pavlovian conditioned to react emotionally and negatively to the word “Nazi”. This was done by war time propaganda which was continued after the war and continues to this day. Say “Nazi” and people salivate disgust and hate. I couldn’t help but notice its use in the article above. And of course, it had it’s intended effect.
But wait, let’s compare the record of Stalin and Hitler before the start of the war.
How many of citizens of the USSR were slaughtered by Stalin? I’ve seen figures ranging from 4 to 12 million.
What was Hitlers big crime? It’s the Jews! it’s the Jews! Ok, Hitler wanted to expel the Jews from Germany. There was talks about Madagascar, but, that amounted to nothing. The evil Germanys did work with Zionist and implemented the Transfer Agreement where Jews could immigrate to Palestine and take all their wealth with them. In exchange the Zionist would try to get the world wide Jewish boycott removed. This boycott was implemented in 1933 and was very effective. About 500,000 German Jews immigrated to Palestine under the transfer agreement and it played a huge role in forming the state of Israel by providing people and resources. There was also Kristallnacht. This was orchestrated by someone but it was not done by Hitler and once he found out he squashed it immediately. It worked against his aim to get the boycott lifted. Figures vary on how many were killed during Kristallnacht but it in the tens to hundreds.
Thus, noble Stalin killed millions and while evil nazi Hitler killed hundreds. Yet Stalin is dear Uncle Joe, and Hitler Satan. I guess it’s true a few deaths are a tragedy but millions of deaths is a statistic.
After the war began and the Allies started fire bomb German cities it’s really hard to talk about morality. But one thing is clear, every side committed mass murder.
So please, stop ringing the bell to make people salivate!
Your attempt to whitewash Hitler’s legacy is pretty lame. Hitler started WW II, which killed more that the Jews exterminated in the Holocaust.This is more than “killing Jews.” Hitler considered the Russians as untermensch–ie, sub-human. As far as I know, Stalin’s brutality was always about power and maintaining control, not about some crazed ideology based on racial purity.
I’m just relaying what I’ve come to understand from my reading. Please explain to me what I said that is incorrect.
How was Otto Frank (Anne’s father) able to construct and publish her diary. He was in Auschwitz and got sick with typhus. Those evil Germans nursed him back to health (why, so they kill him by gassing? I guess Colonel Klink was in charge since he survived). Why waste resources nursing a Jew back to health if your just going to kill him? Given Germany’s lack or resources and desperate situation why would they devote resources to saving a Jew?
Also, are you whitewashing the crimes of the Allies. The entire debacle was caused by the unjust Versailles Treaty: signed with the British blockaded with German children were starving. Very noble behavior there. And then there was the bombings, and mass murder after the war.
Sorry but there is plenty of atrocities to go around and to myopically focus on one aspect is disingenuous.
Also why is the focus only on the Jews and their suffering? 60 million people died. Churchill himself killed 1 million Indians by sequestering their grain. Might it be because of the dominance of Jews in Hollywood and the media. Might that play just a small role? And how about all the numerous Jewish organizations that pounce on anyone questioning their sanctified version of history.
Most people were traumatized by the horrible picture of the nazi concentration camps. We are to believe this is how they were operated. However, this was their state at the final collapse of Germany when the Allies arrived. This is after Germany was bombed back to the stone age, anything that moved was destroyed. Talk about supply chain disruption! Forget the inmates, most Germans were starving to death. Also efforts to control typhus in the camps had collapsed. Those gaunt, horrible human skeletons are an example of what malnutrition and typhus does. But no, we are led to believe that this was the run of the mill common treatment. So many lies. And the gullible populas believe.
The fact that atrocities were committed by the Allied forces – 2 million Indians killed by Churchill in an induced famine in India, the fire bombing of Tokyo, Dresden and Colon (Cologne) and other places, the conscription of troops of Colonial countries to fight on Britain’s behalf, etc., – does not excuse the fact that Hitler’s actions killed 6 million Jews. Hitler is despised and hated, and rightly so.
In the Second World War, there were two genocides, that of the Jews by Hitler, and of Indian civilians by Churchill. One of them is reviled, while the other is revered. Both should be reviled and cast to the dustbin of history.
But the Second World War was won primarily by the Soviet Union which suffered the most in terms of casualties (27 million civilian and military, more than the population of most countries of that time), and destroyed more of Germany’s best troops and materiel than the rest of the Allies combined.
Actually 10million people were killed in the holocaust. Half ofll whom are reported to be Jews.
The largest genocide by proportion of population was of gypsies who continue to suffer under Ukranian Nazis.
And the Russians lost by far the most people over 25million.
It was not just Hitler who considered Slavs inferior that was a western European view in general.
When you take into account commonwealth deaths. The Brits did not sacrifice much in WW1 or 2 as others fought for them under their army banner.
@gman has a fair point. Real facts on WW2 are tricky because it’s such a sensitive issue for Jews and contrasting that history is criminalised in many countries.
However, the economic argument drove thee wars.
The British are usually the key instigators of global wars, post Kennedy US moved from a country that believed in wealth from creativity and opportunity of its citizens to a country that adopted UK approach to empire.
Anyone wanting to under why US is the way it is now has to understand that the UK, unable to defeat US militarily or divide it, decided to co opt it as the big beast to continue colonialism. Hence they coined the special relationship. A world order led by UK puling US strings and using US muscle.
Unlike the US which can be internally self sufficient, like Russia, UK was a shop. Buy cheap sell high. It needed to exploit poorer countries to maintain wealth and influence. The US actually didn’t.
Key UK influenced decisions are the fed reserve model over the national American banking model. The fake paper money printing. Remember Brits hated Lincoln.
Look at Steele and MI6 role in Trump downfall and UK interference in US elections.
People think neo cons drive everything like this war actually. US “thinking” of today and it’s Oxford educated elite are influenced by:
– rejection of American creativity and self sufficiency to embrace UK destructive colonialism and resource stripping
– adoption of UK financial rules and systems
– integration of MI6 and CIA and five eyes
– destruction of US self sufficiency by that UK model
– neo cons
– Israeli lobby
– political, judicial and civil society corruption and destruction in the US
In the UK the crown sits at the top. Around it are all centres of influence. A twisted and yet stable order prevails.
In the US oligarchs, political elite and billionaires form the top eschelon. Unstable and easily manipulated.
The British have never been America’s true friends. They use it.
The war with Ukrainie, destruction of Europe,all favour a post Brexit UK. This is exactly what MI6 and the British wanted. Weak Germany torn from Russia. UK is pole position.
America was naive and foolish to allow the Brits a way back in to manipulate the US. Because the excel at that so much that most Americans would never name them as culprits.
26 million Soviet civilians were killed in WW2!!! It is war crime and Nazi are criminals!!! Point, no excuse!!!
How were the evil Huns portrayed to the populus in America. Have a look at some of the WW1 propaganda posters: Gorillas with German hats, raping women.
“What was Hitlers big crime?”
Have you heard of ‘the hunger plan’?
This was the strategy the Nazi’s concocted to depopulate European Russia east to the Volga river to the tune of 30 million non-germanic people by starving them over the winter of 1941 -42.
This wasn’t some BS conspiracy theory concocted on vague evidence … it was a written plan the Germans were following. The Germans were to crush the red army taking Leningrad, Moscow, Kiev and Rostov in the fall campaign season of 1941 and drive 30 million Untermensch into the open to be starved over the winter. Jews were to either be exiled east of the Urals or killed … the remaining Slavs were to be used for forced labour. The cities were to be razed to the ground and new ones built.
There is a mountain of evidence of regular Wehrmacht soldiers burning towns and villages, driving the people onto the steppe to die and stealing their food and livestock during Barbarossa.
Fortunately the Soviets were much more organized, loyal, tough and tenacious than the Nazi’s gave them credit for.
I don’t pretend to be any kind of moral authority so I’ll leave you to decide if such a plan was criminal or not.
Sort of sounds like the Holodomor.
I’m not making light of your claim and I know there was a push for lebensraum, but, so many lies have been ossified in the WW2 literature it is really hard to know what is true and what is not.
One thing we do know, a really good excuse had to be concocted to explain the horrible debacle of WW2. And that excuse was Hitler was satan. And many lies are told to bolster that lie.
Read Bloodlands by Timmothy Hutton. I’ve heard both Red army and Wehrmacht fan boys moan about how he’s a liar and their side were really saints but he’s a serious academic, his work is well researched and sources documented … both sides get a little testy because neither side look good in his work.
There have been genocides, pogroms and mass murder in Eastern Europe for thousands of years. It’s a crossroad of civilizations that has been constantly fought over since there were people. The fact that we had peace there for nearly 80 years is some king of record.
Trying to paint one side as a saint and the other as a villian is pointless … that all depends on where you want to start your historical clock and from whose perspective you’re seeing it from. It’s the toughest neighborhood on earth and if you aren’t a gangster you’re a mark.
I’m not trying to whitewash anything or make Hitler look like Mother Teresa.
I wanted to make a point that the term “Nazi” illicits a negative emotional reaction due to a life time of anti German propaganda. It isn’t an argument, it’s a trained response.
This is because history is written by the victors and they wrote it make themselves look noble and the other side look evil.
Before the war Stalin scored much higher on the scale of evil.
After the war atrocities were committed on both sides.
It’s hard to overcome deeply held beliefs but people who are interested in the truth should study the subject and they will uncover many lies.
Dave,
Bloodlands is on my reading list.
Gman
Arguing Hitler was not that bad is a losing argument. He was a tyrant who had no issue with killing kids women and civiliansin the most savage ways.
The point you seem to be making is that there were equal or similar evils that are not acknowledged or condemned in the same way. Therefore that distorts the historical pictures. That’s a fair point.
Victor’s write history.
Eg slavery, the biggest slave traders historically were the Arabs. First they took European slaves (many modern Arabs are white)when Europeans fought back more they took African slaves.
More receive Sudan’s Arabs enslaved South Sudanese.
Yet slavery is still talked of as a American / Western European only issue.
That’s does not make slavery less barbaric. It just reduces it to the widespread human issue it was / is rather than linked to just whites which is a distortion.
You cannot choose a particular date and say that we will examine the actions of two historical figures until this date only and make judgments. You have to look at their whole life and form judgments. You are not allowed to pick and choose parts of people’s lives and make judgments based on those parts alone, you have to look at their whole life.
That is where your argument falls apart, gman.
This is a little bit like arguing whether it is worse to have stomach/liver cancer or advanced heart disease. Different symptoms but both end in an ugly fashion. What sets Stalin apart from Hitler is that Stalin listened to his generals and did not fire them for disagreeing with him.
and you do not include churchill the (western) worshipped ‘hero’ of the west who killed FAR MORE people than stalin and hitler combined with his policies in india ? for sure the millions of dead indians are not caucasian or ‘white’ maybe this is the reason you think it is ok for churchil not to be included in your ‘evil leader’ comment ..
such typical nonsense from the resident troll ‘gman’
What Gman said is true about the Transfer Agreement. He’s speaking the truth. Here is a video with the first 10 minutes being from a news segment which interviews Edwin Black, a Jewish historian, who discovered Hitler created Israel. The news segment is compelling and very informative. His book called the Transfer Agreement was a New York Times bestseller for quite sometime. This video was on YouTube for over a decade but they’ve purged it even though it’s from a legitimate local news station from the East coast.
https://www.bitchute.com/search/?query=Transfer+agreement+Edwin+black
Here is Benjamin Netanyahu clearly saying Hitler didn’t want to exterminate the Jews and that he only wanted to expel them.
https://youtu.be/-Ju1w-iDR0o
There are a lot of valid questions people have but the stigma for even voicing them makes it almost impossible to engage in civil discourse because what always happens is the person with legitimate questions gets called an anti-Semite. It’s absurd that people can question practically anything, but question the facts we’ve been told about Hitler and the Holocaust and you become thus evil and horrible person. That is not the path of the truth seeker as those who seek the truth are open to all questions and possibilities because the only way we learn something new is by acknowledging we are not God and we could be wrong as history is not a science and none of us were there.
It is true that prior to the start of the War Hitler was willing to consider resettling all Jews in Germany to some place like Madagascar. However, the work of the Einsatzgruppen was pure murder and so-called ethnic cleansing by the Germans of the Jewish population in Poland and Ukraine.
Jim Marrs wrote a very well researched book called The Rise of the Fourth Reich.
In it, Marrs documented Nazi influence in business and government since the end of WW2 that exists to this day. Canada ia a case in point but hardly unique.
Many people have never heard of Operation Paperclip, I assume anyone intelligent enough to read this blog are familiar with it, but Paperclip according to Marrs was only part of it.
Warner VonBraun was a Paperclip alumni, as was Rhinehart Gehlen.
The OSS/CIA had deep relationships with many prominent Nazis.
The Soviets also imported quite a few Nazis at the end of the war and used their advanced scientific knowledge to their benefit, not as Dulles did, allowing Gehlen to run the show for him while pumping him for millions of dollars for intelligence he mostly made up.
David Talbott’s book The Devils Chessboard discusses Nazi influences in the CIA and Allen Dulles.
These are two books very worth reading, both have original scholarship on this subject.
The OSS put Theodor Adorno (A Jewish cultural Marxist) in charge of the US denazification program.
And then there is operation Gladio, the smuggling of heroin into black neighborhoods in the US to get money to support anticommunist activities in Italy. And this right after WW2(aka The War to Save Joseph Stalin).
Operation Gladio/CIA putting heroin in black neighborhoods in the USA?
Way too much misguided, flimsy, sensational conspiracy theory BS. You cannot control everything that your assets do and there are no saints involved in the quest for political power. You take your assets/allies as they are. The OSS/CIA needed assets in the fight to counter expanding socialism. The Italian Mafia was a natural ally b/c they hated socialism too (they also hated Mussolini). The Italian mafia was responsible for spreading heroin in American black neighborhoods, not the CIA. The Mafia would have done that whether or not they were working with the CIA against socialism.
What was the OSS/CIA supposed to? Kill the mafia for distributing heroin? Then who would provide intel and resistance to the socialists?
Socialism was being imposed on societies from the top down at gun point. No one forced blacks to inject themselves with heroin. Are you one of those racist people that thinks blacks are stupid children with no agency? Poor little things can’t even obtain ID for voter ID because they’re that pathetic.
In many countries around the world it is drug dealers who wield the power because drugs make a lot of money; a lot of money. If you want to work in those countries, then you must work with the dealers.
Then the conspiracy theorists come along and see the military, CIA, big corporate business having [unfortunately necessary] connections to the drug dealers in those countries and their imaginations go wild “connecting the dots” and building “theories”, which they spread around as if the stuff from their own heads is gospel truth.
gman,
Tell us about Tuskegee (not the airmen like the brigadier Trump invited to one of his SOTU addresses to congress) and Emitt Till, too.
“The War to Save Joseph Stalin”
That’s funny. Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and went to war against the US, France, England and a host of other countries to save Stalin? Hitler had Germany declare war on the US to save Stalin? That’s not even third rate trolling.
could you stop spreading FUD and nonsense in this blog ? all i see from your posts here are designed to do just that , either supporting govt narrative or inserting fake facts and nonsense.
this is called ‘ruining the well’ tactic commonly used by hasbara trained troll worldwide , to make the comment section of a blog descend into chaos and confusion
I was talking about this with my mother last night. As a 3rd gen Polish Canadian, I can say our community just doesnt have itself organized and as influential as the Ukrainians. We dont hate the Russians like the Ukes do. Sure we dont like them, but its more rival football team level right now.
I speculated that its because us Poles and the Russians have a strong national identity from our times as independent empires. The Ukranians dont really have that same amount of history. There hatred of the Slavs is there cultural identity.
Are Ukies not slavs? Not a a speaker of slavonic languages myself, but Ukie sounds like Russian with Polish accent, or maybe the other way around
The Nazi types who run the country dont think they are slavs. They think they are better than anyone else, probably including Germans. Racism doesnt make sense or has to be coherent.
Banderas and his descendents just want an excuse to be evil and special.
Larry thanks for putting up with me.
Peace!
larry johnson a gracious host , but people in here are not some ignorant cucks who cant spot an obvious TROLL like you who constantly post lies and fake facts woven in your posts. This is not SST where posting FUD supporting gov narrative is welcomed with open arms by the SST owner the lithuanian clown TTG (yes Pat Lang is not the owner he just a coward has been)
go to SST and you will find far more welcome from the ass kissers there
The trolls are sent to ruin Larry’s credibility. Making his blog look like a kooky conspiracy theory haven is bad enough, but a holocaust denier site is far worse in the eyes of the public (rightfully so). The more CT nonsense and Holocaust denier crap, the more effort that has to be dedicated to responding and managing it and the more discussion is sidetracked and the more the participants are smeared.
I will eliminate them.
I find your comments rude, and you are calling people trolls all the time. Maybe you are the troll here?
Buntalanluca,
I’m not a troll, I’m a hobbit.
Excellent article, now supplemented with the list of Nazi NATO officers from 1960 onwards
Leuchter has been fully discredited. The murders committed at Auschwitz/Birkenau, Belzac, Chelmno, Maidanek, Sobibor and Treblinka was organized genocide. The West knew about it and ignored it. Feigning shock at the end of WW II with the discovery of the concentration camps in Germany.
I think that is a misinterpretation of Leuchter’s work. I have read it. I extensively studied the Earnst Zundel trial. Leuchter was the expert Zundel hired. It is an extremely detailed engineering report (150 pages) and his conclusion was that these camps did not have gas chambers.
Leuchter was a budding engineer who desired to have a career in gas chamber design and construction, which was the reason he was hired as an expert. His investigation and report was limited to whether these camps had gas chambers. And he concluded from an engineering standpoint these facilities could not have been gas chambers.
I was a products liability lawyer (35 years in the field of personal injury before I retired) and I have seen lots engineering reports. But none compared with the thoroughness of Leuchter’s report. It is actually quite amazing.
Leuchter’s report does not mean that vast numbers of people did not die in these camps; it just means that gas chambers were not the reason.
No engineer that I am aware of has ever proven Leuchter’s conclusions to be wrong. If you know of such an engineering investigation disproving Leuchter, I would certainly be interested in reading it.
The eye witness testimony coupled with overhead imagery from US Army Air Corps clearly shows operating crematories. And that Zyklon B was used to exterminate mostly Jews, but some gypsies, at Birkenau. The Shoah is neither myth nor hoax. The deliberate attempt to exterminate one ethnic group.
Two things:
First, I am not saying the holocaust did not exist. I certainly believe it did. Yes there were crematoria at these places. No doubt about that. That these people died in mass numbers and that many were cremated is also not in dispute. These facts do not address the issue of how they died.
Second, the Germans were accused of killing these people in gas chambers. Leuchter proves very convincingly there were no gas chambers in these camps as has been alleged by many people. If there were eyewitnesses, they lied.
This is what a gas chamber looks like and what Leuchter expected to see when he went to these camps (not to insult your intelligence but simply to help you quickly visualize the complexity of one and its construction):
https://www.thelostogle.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/gas-chamber.jpg
And then look at Krema 1 from Auschwitz:
https://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/krema1gaschamber.jpg
There is nothing similar about these two things. So if eyewitnesses said these were gas chambers they were lying. Gas chambers have to be air tight. Krema 1 would leak like a sieve. The Germans were the best submarine builders in the world. If they had wanted to make air tight gas chambers they certainly knew how.
David,
I have been to both camps–i.e., Aushwitz and Birkenau. There most certainly were three gas chambers at Birkenau. Auschwitz was a work camp/admin center. I am surprised you are so convinced of this. Have you been to Birkenau? The eye witnesses, thousands of them, are not liars. The blueprints of the buildings match the footprints of the ruins. The cannisters of Zyklon B discovered by the Russians were not just for delousing prisoners.
I haven’t been. But did you see anything like the the gas chamber I showed you? If you didn’t you were fooled. Science proves history wrong all the time. If you don’t make an airtight enclosure made out of metal (not brick or mortar because they leak) and if you don’t have an extremely good ventilation system everyone who operates the things is in jeopardy of dying. Send me the blueprints.
https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/through-the-lens/auschwitz-blueprints.asp
Those are not blueprints. I know because I work from blueprints in my hands-on renovation work at one of our commercial properties. Blueprints have separate sheets for grading the land, framing the building, an electrical plan, a plumbing plan, an exterior plan. I consult our blueprints on particular projects.
Those are simple line drawings of the interior or exterior. I see no measurements, no specification of materials, no details on grading, construction details, electrical runs, plumbing specs. A general contractor could not build a facility from those line drawings.
Dude, it is called willful blindness. The gas chambers were real.
Leuchter was not an engineer. He was sanctioned for falsely claiming to be. And his studies were completely discredited. You do yourself no favor by spreading such bullshit. BTW, I here a family member is transitioning. You must be proud.
Leuchter is not even an engineer. He has no associated training. He is a quack.
EXACTLY! How does one rewrite and control history? They create thought crimes and make it illegal to question the official narrative. There are thousands of people in jail throughout Europe for simply questioning what happened during the war. They have even throwing 80-year-old grandma into jail because they did not believe what they have been force-fed to believe. I think any person who is being honest with themselves will know that it’s very strange to outlaw questioning historical events because that’s how you prevent new facts and information from the people.
I knew that there were something more about all of this when I discovered that it was illegal to question what happened during World War II throughout most of Europe. When I discovered this single fact I knew that there was a cover-up, but to a degree, I don’t know. But there are a lot of interesting facts that are intentionally excluded and whenever they’re brought up the person that brings them up is immediately labeled an antisemite and a horrible person who or than ostracized.
For me, it has nothing to do with hating or loving Jewish people, it has everything to do with finding out the truth, any person that seeks the truth will find this topic very compelling because this topic is off limits. I will say it sure is easier to just go along with the masses, but as someone who seeks the truth at all costs, I can’t just go along believing what I know isn’t the full truth.
The truth is that Germany stripped the Jews of their rights and property without regard to their social status. The truth is that Germans rounded up Jews in the cities and villages of Poland and put them in Ghettos and then sent them to extermination camps. The truth is that Einsatzgruppen units rounded up Jews from Shtetls and murdered them in mass shootings.
What are you trying to say? If you actually read the article that you yourself linked to, it would be clear that the people you say are just standing around on coffee break are in a state of shock and confusion. The woman who the article centers on is quoted saying that she heard something she thought might be a firecracker, came outside and saw King lying on the deck, “”We all ran outside to see what was going on and he was laying on the balcony,” Ford said of King. “And I’m standing there. I’m just dumbfounded, you know? Just shocked.”
Is everyone from coastal CA a stoned spaced-out drooling zombie? It sure seems that way.
“Woah, like dude, I like totally saw this picture and these dudes and dudettes were like just standing around while Dr. King was like dead or something…….and then I was thinking…and, you know, it kinda like hurt a little? but I did it anyhow ’cause maybe it might be like important, but like you usually don’t like see the people on the street just, you know, like, standing around chilling”
No shit Sherlock. The point of the pic is that King was shot. That is the subject of interest of interest; not the random confused people on the street.
I am not surprised that you have taken down my posts. It is quite common. But this is material science and you do not store a hazardous gas or liquid in anything but metal. You can believe otherwise, but if you do you might as well throw science out the window. This is the age of throwing science out the window when it is politically expedient.
I’m not throwing science out the window. But I’m not going to sit idle while you push discredited, unsubstantiated bullshit about the Holocaust not being true. Embracing a clown like Leuchter certainly calls into question not only your sincerity but, frankly, your intelligence. Makes me wonder, how can a person with formal education be so obtuse? Say hi to Izzy. Hope the transition goes well.
Larry this is about the scientific method. The way you disprove the scientific method is to have another scientist run the same tests and experiments and come up with a different result. For fifteen or twenty years no one has done that with Leuchter’s work. Instead we now debunk science by making ad hominem attacks or just saying we don’t agree with the results.
I come from a very scientific family. My father had a PhD in Biochemistry (taught medical school and graduate school for 40 years) and my brother has a PhD in biophysics (did research only in the university setting for 35 years). Dad was always adamant about how the scientific method worked and how it doesn’t work. And replication is the only way to disprove science. Nothing else is a legitimate way to disprove a scientific result.
We obviously think that there is a crisis in America. Many think it is the result of decadence. I think it is because we no longer have any respect for the scientific method. In fact I think we have disdain for it. And it is certainly true in law. Even in the scientific community itself. And until we get back to respecting the scientific method and properly using it, we do not have a snowball’s chance in hell of ever competing again on the national stage.
The problem with a lot of these conspiracy theories is that the “theorist” latches onto a tiny proportion of the total body of evidence that confirms his bias and/or psychological predisposition, and ignores the overwhelming body of evidence that does not. Usually what is latched onto is flimsy, unsupported and has been countered, but the CTists appears unaware of – or is ignoring – the counters.
Another problem that see a lot of in CTs is that the CTists do not have the professional and technical expertise to make the assessments and conclusions that they do. Being a scientist and/or understanding the scientific method, even deeply, doesn’t mean you understand how a particular subject matter should be studied. Actually, this is can be a impactful issue for non-CT science as well. Deciding which dependent and independent variables should be included in a study/experiment relies on a high degree of familiarity with the subject matter. It effects other aspects of experimental design. Knowing what evidence to look for also relies on intimate knowledge of the subject matter. If you don’t have that intimate knowledge, any charlatan can come along and tell you that is he is a scientist and sell you on his findings and how he arrived at them. You don’t have the background to understand the appropriateness of what he is presenting.
It should be noted that Leuchter had no qualifications to perform the analysis that he claimed to have. From the trial,
“THE COURT: How do you function as an engineer if you don’t have an engineering degree?
THE WITNESS: Well, I would question, Your Honour, what an engineering degree is. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree and I have the required background training both on the college level and in the field to perform my function as an engineer.
THE COURT: Who determines that? You?”
— Exchange between Leuchter and Judge Thomas, Her Majesty the Queen vs. Ernst Zündel, District Court of Ontario 1988
Additionally, there has been scientific rebuttal, by true experts in the salient fields, that shoots holes in what Leuchter claimed.
I think CTists, history revisionists, etc. should be more humble about what they could possibly really understand about these topics. I know that I have deep knowledge- I suppose “expertise” – on a couple of topics, yet even on those topics, I discover a legitimate gap in my knowledge from time to time. I also frequently discover that my knowledge is more narrow than I thought it was. There are related topics with which I just haven’t had personal experience and I have found myself presuming knowledge I don’t have and being wrong. Then there are a couple more topics where I have a large amount of practical of experience, but not to the level of expertise. My limitations are even greater on these subjects. Finally, there is a universe of subjects where I have limited to no experience/knowledge. I am trained in the scientific method and I use analytical skills, statistics, etc. professionally on a daily basis. Sometimes I can “just tell” what is really going on in a situation b/c my analytical mindset raises a red flag, life experience tells me it’s probably this or that, etc., but I would never be arrogant enough to be a witness in court of law or to publish in a journal based on those “senses” alone. Often, I learn that there were things I just didn’t understand or know about that change my opinion when they come to my attention. So I have little sympathy from someone like Leuchter pretending that because he’s smart and knows the scientific method, he can be a definitive voice on gas chambers.
See my response to Larry.
You are done here. Go peddle your anti-Semitic bullshit elsewhere.
By the way, what is your degree?
Dude,
It is not ad hominem to point out that Leuchter had ZERO qualifications/training as an engineer. ZERO. He had no technical background qualifying him to make the judgments he did. Moreover, he did not follow rigorous science based procedures in obtaining and anlyzing the so-called evidence. I fail to understand why a man with your education finds him so credible.
In fairness, official history sometimes is a lopsided propaganda narrative and conspiracies do happen. I mean, there are US laws concerning conspiracies and people/groups get convicted on evidence of participating in them. Heck, the holocaust itself was a conspiracy by the Nazis to eliminate the Jews and other “undesirables”. Iraqi WMD and the invasion was a conspiracy. The list is long. But that doesn’t mean that everything is a conspiracy or false history. Discernment is critical. You have to know how to read the tea leaves (as you said in your most recent post). You have to put aside ego and bias. You have to look at all of the data/evidence. You have to understand what is actually operationally feasible. We all have our blind spots and unexamined tendencies.
Have you read his report? I can guarantee you it is a far better report that most engineers will ever write. This is what I did for a career. I read engineering reports on a regular basis.
And by the way, the scientific method does not require a recognized degree to do the testing or run an experiment. And even an expert, according to law, can be someone with technical knowledge or experience. His lack of the proper degree is a canard, as far as the scientific method is concerned. There are noble prize winners who didn’t have the “right” degrees.
Luchter’s report stands on its own merit. He threw down the guantlet for others to challenge. And they haven’t for an obvious reason. The state of the art for a hazardous liquid or gas is a metal container. And any expert would recognize that immediately.
This is the question I have for you Larry. When you toured the camps, did you see any “chambers” that were completely encapsulated in metal?
If you did not, you need to think about the implications of that. Because that is the state of the art for a hazardous liquid or gas; it has to be enclosed in a metal container.
That was the state of the art then as well.
Fuel tank trucks are not made out of brick, mortar, cement or wood. Nor were they made out of those things in the 1940’s.
You can not make a gas chamber that leaks like a sieve. You can not make a gas chamber out of porous materials. Period. And bricks, mortar, cement and wood are notoriously porous.
Even Leuchter conceded that there were de-lousing chambers and that there is evidence of long-term use of cyanide gas in them. Those chambers were not made of steel. They were concrete too.
Leuchter was not only not an engineer, but he also lied about his experience constructing execution rooms and machines. He listed several states as clients and those states, when asked later, most denied that he had contracted with them.
You’re grasping at straws and it makes one wonder why you are so desperately motivated to do so.
I presume you are referring to David Mills and not me when you state, “You’re grasping . . .”.
Larry,
Yes. I am referring David Mills re; grasping.
The Leuchter “report” clearly states that he found the expected blue staining from cyanide in the alleged delousing buildings and that cyanide gas was used for delousing. Leuchter stipulates use of the gas in the alleged delousing buildings. Well, those building are made of concrete and plaster. That can be seen on line and Leuchter himself took plaster and brick samples. So David Mills’ argument that state of the art gas chambers would be steel (or glass) is silly and grasping. No one disagrees – other than, inexplicably, David – that there were gas chambers at the camp, cyanide was deployed in chambers and the chambers were made from porous concrete and plaster.
Apparently the Nazis were not interested in what David believes is state of the art. I guess something less perfect was sufficient for their purpose.
Good observation Larry. There was a massive influx of Ukrainians to Canada and the U.S. after WW2 (didn’t know about the U.K. but not surprised). Even if most of them did not serve in a Panzer Corp, they were the Ukrainians who hated Russia the most. They carried their grudges with them and raised children with the same chip o their shoulder.
This is reason #10 (picking a number) of why the U.S. should avoid overseas entanglements, ‘ex-pats (of any variety), use the tremendous power of the U.S. to settle old world feuds’. Ukrainians, Jewish immigrants, Iranian ex-pats, Cubans, … BTW I have nothing against those ethnic groups. I just do not want the U.S. to be drawn into blood feuds.