U.S military commands NORAD and NORTHCOM have been soiling themselves during the last 48 hours because a Chinese spy balloon is flying over the United States mainland. The U.S. military initially recommended a shoot down and Joe Biden gave the greenlight. But cooler heads prevailed, in part because there was concern expressed within the military chain of command that falling debris could kill Americans on the ground, and the U.S. opted to let it fly.
The war party in the United States is apoplectic. The media is reporting that the military ignored Biden’s order. Jesse Waters on Fox News — he normally is a strident Biden critic — is openly siding with Biden and condemning the military for not popping that balloon.
This is madness. The countries with military satellites circling the globe do not have a formal agreement under international law defining where earth’s atmosphere ends and space begins. (More about that in a bit.)
Let me start with this question — what is the difference between a Chinese spy balloon flying at 55 miles above the earth collecting intelligence via sensors and cameras and Chinese spy satellite flying at 70 miles above the earth collecting intelligence with sensors and cameras? Simply a matter of altitude.
Currently there is a de facto assumption by most nations that the line dividing earth atmosphere from space is 60 miles above the earth:
Until now, most scientists have said that outer space is 100 kilometers away (i.e., 60 miles). At that point, it’s been thought, the speed needed to achieve lift in the super thin atmosphere is equal to the speed needed to simply orbit the planet; once there, a spacecraft’s horizontal pace would counteract the tug of Earth’s gravity. It’s an insight that has long been credited to aerodynamics pioneer Theodore von Kármán, though he credited the term to the world’s first “space lawyer,” Andrew Haley, in 1963.
https://www.science.org/content/article/outer-space-may-have-just-gotten-bit-closer
The Karman line is a bit of an artificial construct. It is not clearly delineated like a geographic border separating countries.
The Kármán line (or von Kármán line /vɒn ˈkɑːrmɑːn/)[2] is an attempt to define a boundary between Earth’s atmosphere and outer space, and offers a specific definition set by the Fédération aéronautique internationale (FAI), an international record-keeping body for aeronautics. . . . International law does not define the edge of space, or the limit of national airspace.[
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line
At present, the United States, Russia and China tolerate their adversaries satellites flying over their territory scooping up intel. As long as it is in space, satellites freely collect and no nation pitches a fit (yet) or threatens to shoot down the satellites (yet).
Some of my friends sent me this:
I can see both sides. On one hand, this is a foreign aircraft violating sovereign U.S. airspace while overflying sensitive military and nuclear installation sites. That’s a problem. These balloons also differ from satellites in the sense that they have longer loiter times (collection windows) and we can’t predict its presence quite like we can with orbiting vehicles.
On the other hand…dude, it’s a balloon. It’s got some kind SIGINT payload and probably a few sensor balls on it. They’re definitely just fucking with us to see how we’re gonna respond. I think the best way to play this game may be to refuse to play it.
I raised the point that China could park a satellite in geosynchronous orbit over the United States and do the same thing the balloon is doing but from the “comfort” of space. My man, let’s call him R2D2, wrote back:
Geosynchronous vehicles have to be pretty far out in order to park them over a designated spot…the physics demands it. It limits their collection capabilities. And LEO birds are awesome but they have very spotty coverage, nothing like what a balloon can do. In my opinion, having a high alt balloon literally in our backyard gives the CCP a decisive advantage, however, there’s a myriad of ways we can fuck with it and stymie their collection. Jammers, directed energy weapons, lasers, etc. We don’t necessarily need to shoot it down to accomplish our goals.
As you can see, R2D2 is a smart cookie. The heart of the issue is that the Chinese balloon does not pose a greater security threat to the United States than a Chinese military satellite. What has so many arm chair generals and pundits pissed off is that the Chinese are ridiculing our impotence. Nancy Pelosi goes to Taiwan as a deliberate insult to China and the Chinese now send us a balloon and daring us to shoot it down. That is a bait the U.S. should not take.
The objects floating above us are just a matter of perspective. The collection ability of satellites is light years advanced from what we were doing 30 years ago. But International law does not define the edge of space, or the limit of national airspace. We have de facto acceptance of an artificial boundary. The Russians, for example, will tolerate a satellite flying over Moscow but try that with a fixed wing, high flyer like the SR71 or U2. In contrast to the days of the Soviet Union, modern Russia now has the ability to shoot down satellites.
I think the Chinese are testing the definition of what constitutes acceptable overhead surveillance and may be trying to create a predicate for destroying our satellites if we go after their balloons. The United States has long resisted any legal definition of outer space to avoid restrictions on high-altitude military activities. Advances on the technological front involving satellites and other aerial collection systems has created a very murky area that is not defined by law or treaty when it comes to intelligence collection. At least none that I am aware of.
So let me conclude on a lighter note and solicit you suggestions on the best balloon themed movie or music for this situation. Around the World in 80 Days? Up, Up and Away?
More Cowbell Please!
Lawn chair Larry over Long Beach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wWds5r4DZs
Lawn Chair Larry was my all time hero back then
Belay that request, Helmsman. More NENA, please!! The quarter of me that is half German had no idea how sexy Nena was. I just thought she was an ultraleft, quasi-hippie chick singing the most annoying song of the Eighties.
But now, I must confess … Im feeling a bit of “luft” in my upper trouser area
Nobody knows whether this balloon is spying or not. Probably just an errant weather balloon. As Larry points out, spy satellites can do pretty much the same thing. Geosynchronous orbits are not necessary for spying because the satellites can make multiple passes. Multiple passes are often more revealing. This is — as usual — in the American mind — “much ado about nothing”. As I write here:
https://julianmacfarlane.substack.com/p/much-ado-about-nothing-western-wunderwaffen
Where did you get “55 miles”?
Thank you.
BUT-BUT-MUH-ELON-MUSK-STAIRSHIPSLOL – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeIJmciN8mo?t=93
I think Nena is the winner in this high flying discussion – always thought she was pretty hot! And no I have nothing cerebral to add…. 😉
Eh, I could try scraping a bit of my questionable grade cerebral add-on:
What IF, beside setting a precedent to shoot down stuff flying over one’s territory, the economic aspect may override all the rhetoric — it may not be that simple and cheap to shoot this balloon down.
It’s been mentioned that an F-22s have been readied to do it — well, F-22 can go up to 20km while the round thingy may be at much higher altitude (as much as double) and I’m not sure that USAF has any high-altitude missiles with optical homing.
Optimal solution?
Let it be and “explain” to the sheople that the falling debris could endanger the rare Sierra Nevada red fox or something (what is the total weight of this thingy, five pounds perhaps?).
BTW, I couldn’t find any info about the actual altitude of this CCP weather ball — is that a secret?
Cheers, JaKo
USA can’t shot it down really cheap. I think, something like high-price surface to air missile with optical homing must be used.
But look at the precedent.
If USA shot it down, China can just release thousands of such ballons.
If one ballon is not allowed to fly over USA, does thousand of ballons are allowed?
Nena. 99 Luftballoons. I was seriously hot for her. Another fascinating insight Larry. The part of the story that interests me? What if Biden did greenlight and the military overturned? This gets back to General Mark (participation medals for first in chow line always) Milley hiding the nuclear codes from Trump. The military directing disobeying orders from a sitting President to cease operations in some areas. It is not just the FBI and DOJ that is out of control. The military is not necessarily taking orders anymore. In some ways this is good. It might stop Pedo Joe launching the nukes. But my God. The Imperial Roman Army. Who is in charge of who?
The US have shifted from presidents such as Eisenhower, JFK, Nixon, who were statesmen…to presidents like Bill Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, and now Biden – who plainly are not. No wonder that the US military no longer trusts them and has decided to take the critical national security codes into its own hands.
And re balloons…well, following 30 disastrous years, it looks like the days of all-out and undisputed supremacy are now over.
Thank you for your insights.
My comment should have gone into the main thread and not as a reply to Curt Nichols’ comment. Sorry for the wrong click.
I think Trump was a statesman
Trump is a statesman like Ron Jeremy is monogamous
I think you should get checked.
I have a very low opinion about Mr Trump, but he did not start a new war.
In fact, if he had been allowed to follow his instincts, we might not have been in the current war.
He promised to talk to the Russians and get along.
Instead Russia was vilified non-stop on the basis of made-up narratives, and every contact he had with Russia was documented as treason.
Trump didn’t have enough smarts to vet Bolton, let alone Pompeo. It took him a year to figure out there wasn’t a war that Bolton didn’t want to start, while the rest of the world had him figured out for years.
And this is a guy who prided himself on his superlative knack for pulling weeds in The Apprentice.
Just another Wizard of Oz.
Granted, he did finally kick the walrus out. And granted, he probably could have avoided this war, by cutting a deal yet making it look like it was a win/lose for the US. That’s something I guess, although that deal’d have barely lasted his term. They don’t call neocons neoconnivers for nothing.
“JFK, Nixon, who were statesmen”
What planet have you been living on? JFK was a bumbler (the entire Cuban Missile Crisis was his fault), and Nixon was a clueless oaf. Their only saving grace is neither was the absolute disaster that LBJ was.
The entire Cuban missile crisis was not perpetrated or mismanaged by JFK.
“On January 20th, 1961, John F. Kennedy was inaugurated as President of the United States. Along with inheriting the responsibility of the welfare of the country and its people, he was to also inherit a secret war with communist Cuba run by the CIA.
JFK was disliked from the onset by the CIA and certain corridors of the Pentagon, they knew where he stood on foreign matters and that it would be in direct conflict for what they had been working towards for nearly 15 years. Kennedy would inherit the CIA secret operation against Cuba, which Prouty confirms in his book, was quietly upgraded by the CIA from the Eisenhower administration’s March 1960 approval of a modest Cuban-exile support program (which included small air drop and over-the-beach operations) to a 3,000 man invasion brigade just before Kennedy entered office.
This was a massive change in plans that was determined by neither President Eisenhower, who warned at the end of his term of the military industrial complex as a loose cannon, nor President Kennedy, but rather the foreign intelligence bureau who has never been subject to election or judgement by the people. It shows the level of hostility that Kennedy encountered as soon as he entered office, and the limitations of a President’s power when he does not hold support from these intelligence and military quarters.
Within three months into JFK’s term, Operation Bay of Pigs (April 17th to 20th 1961) was scheduled. As the popular revisionist history goes; JFK refused to provide air cover for the exiled Cuban brigade and the land invasion was a calamitous failure and a decisive victory for Castro’s Cuba. It was indeed an embarrassment for President Kennedy who had to take public responsibility for the failure, however, it was not an embarrassment because of his questionable competence as a leader. It was an embarrassment because, had he not taken public responsibility, he would have had to explain the real reason why it failed. That the CIA and military were against him and that he did not have control over them. If Kennedy were to admit such a thing, he would have lost all credibility as a President in his own country and internationally, and would have put the people of the United States in immediate danger amidst a Cold War.
What really occurred was that there was a cancellation of the essential pre-dawn airstrike, by the Cuban Exile Brigade bombers from Nicaragua, to destroy Castro’s last three combat jets. This airstrike was ordered by Kennedy himself. Kennedy was always against an American invasion of Cuba, and striking Castro’s last jets by the Cuban Exile Brigade would have limited Castro’s threat, without the U.S. directly supporting a regime change operation within Cuba. This went fully against the CIA’s plan for Cuba.
Kennedy’s order for the airstrike on Castro’s jets would be cancelled by Special Assistant for National Security Affairs McGeorge Bundy, four hours before the Exile Brigade’s B-26s were to take off from Nicaragua, Kennedy was not brought into this decision. In addition, the Director of Central Intelligence Allen Dulles, the man in charge of the Bay of Pigs operation was unbelievably out of the country on the day of the landings.
Col. Prouty, who was Chief of Special Operations during this time, elaborates on this situation “Everyone connected with the planning of the Bay of Pigs invasion knew that the policy dictated by NSC 5412, positively prohibited the utilization of active-duty military personnel in covert operations. At no time was an “air cover” position written into the official invasion plan…The “air cover” story that has been created is incorrect.”
As a result, JFK who well understood the source of this fiasco, set up a Cuban Study Group the day after and charged it with the responsibility of determining the cause for the failure of the operation. The study group, consisting of Allen Dulles, Gen. Maxwell Taylor, Adm. Arleigh Burke and Attorney General Robert Kennedy (the only member JFK could trust), concluded that the failure was due to Bundy’s telephone call to General Cabell (who was also CIA Deputy Director) that cancelled the President’s air strike order.
Kennedy had them.
Humiliatingly, CIA Director Allen Dulles was part of formulating the conclusion that the Bay of Pigs op was a failure because of the CIA’s intervention into the President’s orders. This allowed for Kennedy to issue the National Security Action Memorandum #55 on June 28th, 1961, which began the process of changing the responsibility from the CIA to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. As Prouty states, “When fully implemented, as Kennedy had planned, after his reelection in 1964, it would have taken the CIA out of the covert operation business. This proved to be one of the first nails in John F. Kennedy’s coffin.”
If this was not enough of a slap in the face to the CIA, Kennedy forced the resignation of CIA Director Allen Dulles, CIA Deputy Director for Plans Richard M. Bissell Jr. and CIA Deputy Director Charles Cabell.
In Oct 1962, Kennedy was informed that Cuba had offensive Soviet missiles 90 miles from American shores. Soviet ships with more missiles were on their way towards Cuba but ended up turning around last minute. Rumours started to abound that JFK had cut a secret deal with Russian Premier Khrushchev, which was that the U.S. would not invade Cuba if the Soviets withdrew their missiles. Criticisms of JFK being soft on communism began to stir.
NSAM #263, closely overseen by Kennedy, was released on Oct 11th, 1963, and outlined a policy decision “to withdraw 1,000 military personnel [from Vietnam] by the end of 1963” and further stated that “It should be possible to withdraw the bulk of U.S. personnel [including the CIA and military] by 1965.” The Armed Forces newspaper Stars and Stripes had the headline U.S. TROOPS SEEN OUT OF VIET BY ’65. Kennedy was winning the game and the American people.
This was to be the final nail in Kennedy’s coffin.
Kennedy was brutally shot down only one month later, on Nov, 22nd 1963. His death should not just be seen as a tragic loss but, more importantly, it should be recognised for the successful military coup d’état that it was and is. The CIA showed what lengths it was ready to go to if a President stood in its way. (For more information on this coup refer to District Attorney of New Orleans at the time, Jim Garrison’s book. And the excellently researched Oliver Stone movie “JFK”).”
https://strategic-culture.org/news/2020/01/19/secret-wars-forgotten-betrayals-global-tyranny-who-is-really-in-charge-of-the-u-s-military/
Thanks Paul.
JFK a bumbler? Do you mean because he bumbled the Bay of Pigs. Yeah, maybe. Personally, I don’t think it had a chance in hell in succeeding anyway. Had they pressed Battista on reforms earlier on, then maybe – but he wasn’t that kind of a guy, nor were we.
Nixon linked oil to dollar. Creating the petrodollar,Most of US financial domination is due to him. His achievements are very underrated.
And look at the real good that brought the world.
The US has been the biggest terrorist organization for decdes.
The cows are now coming home…and we are all going to be milked for all we are worth.
Still smarting from Pres Trump sorting out the left wing swamp?
And the senile Bygone shoehorned in on a rigged ballot.
Next you will be chanting ‘its all Russia’s fault’.
In the movie “Seven days in May” the army overthrows the president because the latter pursues peace. Maybe this time the army will overthrow the president because he pursues war?
Wouldn’t that be something? I hope those in our military understand they’re being duped and used not for defence but profit for our oligarchs and plutarchs.
I suspect many in the upper echelons of our military are also in on the profits. They wouldn’t be allowed to have risen so high without the blessing of “those in charge”. Don’t you think?
We don’t think. We know. And if we didn’t know, Larry’s spelled it out on more than one occasion, along with MacGregor.
Well, in the old days officers wanted a good war every so often because it was needed for their resume. “Combat” experience was a huge boon to quicker promotions and higher ranks, which used to be the goal of military officers. Now, the MIC has become almost exclusively about making money–combat effectiveness of equipment or officers is irrelevant, possibly even counter-productive–and the goal of officers is to do their time and then get into a cushy director or lobby job. Little, lingering, low-intensity wars are great for profits, but the big one is not, so the brass is no longer particularly interested in wars that might delay their payday.
Apparently witches exist and Kiev will deploy many of them to the front.
An alternate perspective
https://youtu.be/5akEgsZSfhg
Desperate responses to the SMO expose weakness. Now every Tom, Dick and Harry with test us and screw with us,not just China. I can only imagine what phone calls between Blinken and his counterparts across Africa, Asia,Latin America etc,.look like now. They used to be “do this or else” followed by a “yes, sir” response. Now it is probably “yeah, up yours, let me call Lavrov first, I will get back to you tomorrow (never)”…
Reap what you sow, isn’t that what they say? Threaten, bully, come up with devious ways to ruin others and eventually it will all come back on you…
Excellent point. When you are the bully of the playground (USA), your power lasts until the first kid punches you. And even if you win? It starts the conversation. And if you lose? Ratpack time.
Be nice to people on your way up. You’ll meet them again on your way down.
Hey, do you remember “Don’t call us, we’ll call you!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHDNWf_ws38&ab_channel=LarryHinze
Enyou!
Larry, did you see the NY Times article today claiming that Russia has lost 200,000 soldiers? Unreal.
No. You’re correct. Delusional.
And yet those pesky evil Russians keep gaining ground! LMAO at the stupidity of those who write that crap for a living and all of those who read it and believe it. No critical thinking involved!!
OK, lets suppose the glorious UA forces DID kill 200K Russians. In tht case however, why do not we see LONG columns of POWs marched on the streets of Kiev, like 5-10 thousands of them?
We don’t even see mass burial sites, videos of soldiers on corpse details, video’s of dead Russians everywhere, giant cemetery expansion … everything tangible is about ubiquitous Ukr losses.
Because this whole war is about projection, every problem the Ukr has is thought to be about Russia as well or even only Russia. Food, weapons, ammo, logistics, poor command, poor training, huge losses, no more tanks, filtration of the civilian population, deliberately targeting civilians … it’s all projection and seldom facts or figures.
The Moon’s a Balloon – David Niven’s autobiography (ok, not a song/movie), which segues us into
Fly Me to the Moon – especially Sinatra version with the Basie Band
200 Balloons – Prince
Black Balloons – Denzel Curry
Balloon – Chico Suave
https://foundationsofmusic.org/songs-about-balloons/ – not all are about balloons
Love it!!
Apologies…Nothing to do with the topic, but mention of balloons and moon reminded me of How High The Moon. Took me ages to remember who recorded my favourite recording of the song. It was by the pretty much forgotten Jazz artist, Slim Gaillard.
If you do nothing else today, make an effort to listen to this.
Welcome to the wonderfully weird jazz world of Slim Gaillord:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R08DrJTs4_o
“I’ve stood in a thousand street scenes
Just around the corner from you
On the edge of a dream that you have
Has anybody ever told you it’s not coming, true?
Farewell my black balloon
Farewell my black balloon, the weather had it’s way with you” – The Kills (a US/UK duo)
EMP balloon?
The Chinese claimed it was a meteorological balloon that went astray in the jet stream. Seems plausible.
I suspect that they used a flimsy excuse for not shooting it down (afraid it would fall on someone’s head in a state with 7 people per sq mile) because they preferred that the MSM run with the (OMG! Spy satellite over nuclear launch sites!) story and didn’t want anybody messing with the message.
One for the Space Force. They have to get their uniform dirty sometime? Send up a volunteer drop ’em from orbit with rocket suit. (we must have one by now?) Rocketman shooooots down on it and captures it without a fight. Very low risk. Can be attributed to a rogue element if necessary. Embassy assures China that the perp will be tracked down.
What happened to the overflights by treaty? Everyone got along and they all knew when to put the new jet back in the hangar before the fly by. Big deal.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/significant-threat-national-security-us-air-force-warns-over-chinese-corn-mill-north
China ownership of North Dakota Corn Mill…..
Probably track it here…but it’s subscription: SkyGlass
https://www.aviarlabs.com/
Great intel and info Larry. Very refreshing in the current press environment.
From Suzanne Downing… Must Read Alaska:
https://mustreadalaska.com/spy-balloon/
https://www.defense.gov/News/Transcripts/Transcript/Article/3287204/senior-defense-official-holds-a-background-briefing-on-high-altitude-surveillan/
Sorry, but I really don’t understand how this provides any long-term advantage to China.
Balloons are very cheap and widely available technology. What prevents the US and half of Asia from flying balloons over China now?
Maybe I am missing something obvious (?)
We tried that with the Soviet Union during the cold war – Project Moby Dick. We stopped when the Soviets complained and they used captured equipment from our venture for a better purpose.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/cold-war-balloon-surveillance
Unfortunately for the US, the jetstream wind at spy balloon altitude blows from Asia eastward over the Pacific. The Japanese in WW2 sent bomb-laden paper balloons over the western US using that knowledge. With very minor results, it has to be said.
Bernard,
Where you see a problem I see an opportunity for a multi-billion dollar sub-orbital high altitude spy ballon injection (SHASBI) program. Perhaps we should work up a white paper! Ok, the acronym needs more work…..
What make everyone so sure it’s “a spy balloon” and not, for instance, a biological payload dispenser?
Isn’t it Strum instead of sturm?
Apoplectic, had to look it up, great word Larry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtD4PzUbj5c
we assume its chinese because that’s what the pentagon and white house is saying. this is the slight of hand propaganda. no one has actually confirmed it is chinese.
99 Red Balloons was released in the same year (1983) as the Able Archer incident. Both about accidental nuclear war.
USA is shifting war MSM narrative to China now at warp speed after the ass kicking Russia is giving the EU/USA in Ukraine. Cooking up any kind of China story now to distract from the Ukraine debacle.
Moving on to the next war. If we can’t beat Russia, maybe we can beat China. But whatever happens, the USA war machine grinds on.
How about “Send in the Clowns”. Clowns and balloons go together don’t they?
it’s not an escaped Brazilian party balloon?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBgQaLbQEH0
What’s the difference between a Weather Balloon and a Spy Balloon ?
/s
Face value assumes it IS a Chinese balloon. Oh, but the American government would NEVER tell a lie, would it?
Oh, wait . . . .
99 luftaballoons! Loved it when it came out in the 80’s
Very suprised to hear about a chinese balloon floating above US…apparently we’re all in the midst of a long strange trip…
I don’t really have an opinion about this, but it would surprise me if the US did the right thing and left it alone. Bad judgment and bad decisions are like a contagious helpers-like disease everyone in Washington has.
*Herpes-like
Clearly bait, IMO. Like a Chinese finger trap.
Shoot it down and US satellites over China and possibly Russia/Ukraine become fair game. Let it go and more will arrive.
Hmmmm, sounds like a “goose and gander” situation.
But of course the Empire creates the rules for others and makes up the ones it wants to follow as ( national security!) needs arise.
There will be no nuclear or all out war since that would end the MIC’s graft. Nietzsche’s law rules: Whoever lives for the sake of combating an enemy has an interest in the enemy staying alive. Human, All too Human IX, 531 Das Leben des Feindes. – Wer davon lebt, einen Feind zu bekämpfen, hat ein Interesse daran, daß er am Leben bleibt.
Trump’s claim that Ukraine would not have happened under him is false to the facts. Trump did not enforce the Minsk Accords. Trump did not stop the Nazi shelling of ethnic Russians. Trump continued the arming, funding and fortification of the Ukraine. Trump did not speak against Ukraine joining Nato – even though Putin warned before, during and after that Ukraine joining and all of the above! As usual, Trump is hot air and lies
True – he was a stealth hawk, flying under the radar.
Trump was, is, and will remain a con man.
And that’s different from any other politician how? All make millions insider trading on congress seats, influence pedal, take classified docs where they shouldnt be…Trump is like an obvious on your face bullshitter is probably why you don’t care for him.
I think he has good instincts on war, peace and justice is reason I’d for him.
I have some problems with Trump’s policies, and I was disappointed at how little he got accomplished, but I’ve always appreciated his character and moral standing.
My one-year-old offers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrd0TiER_J0
A worthy suggestion.
As far as I recall the altitude needed for a geostationary satellite is 36000 kilometres from the earth, ie above sea level. That’s 321.43 times as far away as this balloon is and you’d need a lot more powerful sensors and cameras to get the same level of coverage. Maybe not 321 times more powerful, but, still, a lot more.
This is why spy satellite are mostly not geostationary. Their orbit is between 160 km and 1500 km for the highest. The KH-9 had a 160 km x260 km orbit.
That’s it? China uses balloons. The USA uses satellites? Nothing strikes you funny?
Is there a story behind the story here?
But the USA uses Russian rockets, or did, to get our astronauts into space? China has miles and miles of high speed rail lines and the US has few miles, if any?
It’s landed!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zhDfUAQSbs
Larry, Larry, you’re out of touch.
99 balloons.
Balloons aren’t allowed anymore, as with plastic straws.
Shame!
Where’s the CIA’s Space Plane to go and collect it? What?! We don’t have one after billions spent on the project?!?
What few appreciate is the USA’s geoeconomic dependance on China, meaning that making war on China is akin to making war on yourself as Trump proved with his attempted Economic War on China.
The other issue is controlled airspace. 55 miles is above controlled airspace – theoretically, unless things have changed (I’m a bit older, maybe more than a bit older) anybody can fly over a country at certain altitudes without any permissions from ATC. The US is FL600, not even 12 miles. Since weather balloons and other stuff floats around up there regularly, it’s tough to make a case that anything illegal is going on. Anything that can be photographed by a balloon would arguably be public domain as it is in the open and visible from space anyway (back to the satellite issue).
I am guessing that anything nobody wants seen isn’t in the open, so what’s the fuss? U2’s, Blackbirds, satellites and it’s terrible if the other guys do it too? Gee.
Balloons do not fly at 55 miles up, most likley at 55000 feet up about 11 miles up. The US spy balloons can actually control their direction somewhat by using air currents in various altitudes.
First time I heard the song it was the German version, and I liked it, thought it a catchy pop tune, if a little goofy, and then someone told me the song was about nuclear war, and I was like, WHAT??? Lmao …
The English version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiwgOWo7mDc
I don’t know how it plays in German, but lyrically, in English, it is the most powerful song ever written about The Exchange. There are so many good lines, like “the war machine springs to life,” and satirical gems, like “99 knights of the sky, ride super high tech jet fighters,” but this one gets to the very heart of it all.
“This is what we’ve waited for, this is it boys, this is war.”
If you were watching human activity from space, you might say to your fellow 9 eyed friend, “Oh look, the humans are engaging in another firecracker contest in a place they call the Ukraine.”
“But for some reason they are calling it an ‘existential’ war. Clearly, we still have much to learn about the thought process of this species.”
Everyone’s a Superhero
Everyone’s a Captain Kirk
Yup. Also …
It’s all over and I’m standing pretty
In this dust that was a city
If I could find a souvenir
Just to prove the world was here
The German lyrics are even more powerful.
Or it might be a ballistic balloon, engineered by Section 51, that inadvertently was released by a scheduled bureaucratic de-classification process, hence the public expression of surprise by the usual suspects.
Or it might be a UFO and we are seeing proof that most UFOs are actually balloons, and hence any future spotting of atmosphereic balloons can be dismissed as balooney.
Be creative. Pigs balloon. Clown balloon. Flying saucer balloon.Or a huge video screen balloon blasting product advertising..
Sorry, but this article is somewhat self-contradictory. It says that balloons do not have any capabilities that satellites do not already have, while it also says that loitering times do have relevancy as to the usefulness of balloons and satellites. Satellites can probably carry more payload while balloons can loiter for longer periods, if only with a degree of unpredictability to it. That makes satellites and balloons complementary to each other to some degree. So, just saying that the reconnaissance capabilities offered by balloons are wholly subsumed by the ones offered by satellites is clearly wrong. There may even be synergies offered by using balloons and satellites in conjunction, who knows.
Hence it’s really interesting that the US has opted for not shooting the Chinese balloon down. The legal definition of outer space does not matter, as 60 km is clearly within the atmosphere according to all reasonable standards. The very lowest altitude attainable by spy satellites is said to be around 80 km. How can something floating in the atmosphere 20 km below that not be considered an atmospheric craft?
Could it be that the US simply can’t shoot it down? That would be a grave indictment of the systems that the US has in its possession that are supposed to be able to do that.
I’m no expert but the two picture’s I’ve seen of said Chinese Spy Balloon
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/feb/02/pentagon-chinese-spy-balloon
https://abc7ny.com/chinese-spy-balloon-china-surveillance/12763290/
it looks like a standard Weather Meteorological Balloon,
https://www.scientificsales.com/Meteorological-Weather-Sounding-Balloon-s/25.htm
with a poorly photo shopped solar array superimposed over it. Having a solar array that close to the balloon is a stupid idea as it would mostly be in shadow, it should be suspended much further from the balloon. The photo on the Guardian article is definitely photo shopped and has a different array to the photo from the ABC7 article.
Yeh, it might be a spy satellite from China, but then it could also be just a photo shopped weather balloon given to the press to garner support against China for the coming war. Considering China is a leading space technology power, well …. like I said I’m not an expert.
Headline should be: Level of Alert Increased to DEFCON 3 Because Chinese Are Testing US Defenses With Navel Lint.
a post from Mr. «johnson on the lighter and kind of humerous side . the 99 balloons from nena are a blast from the past . this is here a little more recently with kim wilde
Kim Wilde & Nena | anytime anyplace
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXdKUsB7TTs
i think that this is the enterprise coming back in time to save us since right know we need all the help we can get lol
U.S.Airforce Vs UFO / U.S.S. Enterprise!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57POF6c1pjc
regards,
ralph
Her Song “Miracles happen”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn2BfjkBpLw
Nena today as beautyful as ever
we all hope for a miracle that this war doesnt get out of control
I have not much hope left though
Welcome to the age of the trolling diplomacy. Spying game has loose rules, just deal with it.
It remember me that time a P2 was shot down above NK , when Kissinger had to phone back the NORAD in urge cause a drunken Nixon had transmitted nuclear codes for retaliation.
Serious question: how was the USAF planning on shooting it down?
55 miles up in the sky is a long way up. An F-22 isn’t going to get near enough to take a shot at it with its cannon.
THAAD could get that high, but how does it achieve a lock-on when there is no engine on the damn thing? Radar-guided? Either way firing a THAAD to take down a ballon is, well, its a balloon. Honestly, the USA would get laughed at for being so sensitive about this.
I’m going to hazard a guess that the neocon’s and their ilk are pissed because the order came down the line and the boys in the command center couldn’t actually work out how to take it down with a missile.
Neocon: Then use one of your laser-thingies that go Pew! Pew! Pew!
USAF: We don’t actually have any….
Neocon: Whaaaaaaaaaat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Better luck next time, chaps.
Keep in mind the true altitude capabilities of many of our 5th-gen assets are classified.
Does that mean that they are very good or very bad?
Faith-based defense. How quaint.
Personally-speaking I would suspect that the opposite is true: “our” 5th-gen assets aren’t anywhere near as good as the pundits claim them to be.
” … use one of your laser-thingies that go Pew! Pew! Pew!”
Too funny.
Would you know what is the life expectancy of a gas in ignition in a vacuum (entropy, second law of thermodynamic), and the implications of the answer, i can not imagine it ?
Asm-135 asat is likely still around unofficially
This is from a Russian Telegram channel:
Heh.
Here’s the deal. These balloons fly very high. In the stratosphere.
They eeeele barely reflect the radio signal, so SAM missiles with a radar guidance principle, they are not strayed almost never by anyone, in turn from the gun they do not give a fuck, because they have a cellular structure and need a special anti-aerostat projectile, a feature of which was an ultra-sensitive fuse capable of cocking from touching the thinnest shell of the balloon.
And their presence on planes is a big question. In the USSR, special planes were allocated for the destruction of HELL, and special tanks with special weapons were developed.
Well, the most effective (and in fact the only) method is to attack missiles with IR GOS in an attempt to capture the Sun-warmed side of the balloon.
All the talk that the Americans don’t want to shoot it down is nonsense, of course.
They can’t.
Either the characteristics of the weapons of the Litak Pindos do not allow it, or the skill of the pilots.
But I’ll repeat it again. Balloons are a very difficult target. And if ordinary residents of the United States did not see this Chinese probe, the Pentagon pretended that nothing had happened.
Now try to solve the problem and explain how the first army of the planet can not shoot down the enemy balloon over the country. 🙂
Up, up, and away
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UythVvkS6cA
We don’t want to shoot it down because we fear that debris could hurt someone.
The chance to hit anybody is almost zero.
An obvious lie is the worst lie.
The reason is they have no means to shoot it down. It’s too high for an airplane or a gun. And missiles are chasing airplanes.
What is the reaction of the US population? Do they actually believe that lies? Is this not ridiculous beyond extend?
The ballooney story about ‘Chinese’ blimps somehow reminds me of Orson Welles’ ‘War of the Worlds’. It’s an attempt to make Americans more acutely aware of the ‘Yellow Danger’.
Komsomolskaya Pravda has a small item about Turkish volunteers https://www.kp.ru/daily/27460/4715673/
>>Three fighters from Turkey joined the ranks of the volunteer battalion named after Pavel Sudoplatov, formed in the Zaporozhye region. Now they are crushing the “enemy” at the training ground, where the unit’s personnel are being trained. A volunteer with the call sign “Uzun” said that he had come from Turkey “to support the Russian brothers.” And the main motive: this Turk cannot stand the Nazis who rule Ukraine. When asked what they think at home about participating in the conflict on the side of Russia, a volunteer with the call sign “Laz” told TASS that Russia and Turkey have good relations, and his decision will be “well received” in his homeland. Laz said: “We know that it is no longer the Ukrainians against us. And that Russia will win this war.” Earlier, the administration of Zaporozhye reported that that the fighters of the Sudoplatov battalion are ready to perform combat missions of any complexity – this allows their previous experience and current training. By the way, the Bandera people were afraid of Sudoplatov like the devil incense.<>The Daily NK online newspaper from South Korea reports that North Korea will take part in the restoration of Donbass. According to the Seoul publication, Pyongyang declares its readiness to send its construction teams to new Russian regions. And it seems that he has already selected employees to send hundreds of specialists to the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, as well as to Zaporozhye, to restore destroyed houses, schools, and hospitals. Possible shipment is scheduled for the end of February – mid-March. The North Korean authorities are ready to send up to 500 construction workers in the first batch. As stated, North Korean specialists work very well and their prices are low – this was also mentioned in the Russian government. Russian and Korean – brothers forever!<> The Irish Independent writes that in Ireland, Ukrainian refugees are forced to live in cramped rooms with rats, without a shower and in the cold. Columnist Rodney Edwards saw that the Ukrainians were settled in a room divided by fragile partitions into cramped rooms. Food is scattered on the floor, the emergency exit is used to stir clothes, and there are no showers inside. The journalist writes: “Ukrainians have to go outside, sometimes in the cold, to wash themselves.” Those who left the square complained about rats and mice in places of food. Earlier, the Irish Examiner newspaper wrote that refugees in Ireland are afraid to complain about living conditions because of fears that they could be expelled. Now 42,000 Ukrainians and 16,000 asylum seekers live on the island. Well, you have to choose between rats and mice or Bandera and other Azov people.<<
So, sex in the back yard here in Billings is a “no-go” then….
So, you’re not near the Rimrocks… 😀
Either there were two balloons (which I did see reported somewhere), or something else entirely blew up over Billings last night. Alas, I did not see it.
Assuming there even was a balloon at all… who cares? Only warmongers…
Pigs on the Wing. The Floyd being a band that were very fond of inflatables from very early on. The album from which this song comes from has a connection to another, less sinister balloon causing havoc, as every Floyd fan or any British person reading the papers in ‘77will know. I wonder what Roger Waters is making if this drama.
https://youtu.be/rMBI9aApoik
Who knew Wile E. Coyote would be so prescient. He was the first one I know of using the balloon trick. Now, apparently, it is mainstream espionage tactics. Maybe the US military should ask: What would Bugs Bunny do in this instance? If only Acme manufacturing company hadn’t closed its US factory and relocated to China. What to do????
Best balloon themed movie or music?
got to be Danny Deck Chair; ‘Strayan fillum based on the story of Larry Walters, except Danny didn’t have a competent ground crew, or calculations as to the bouyancy effect of helium filled balloons, or a parachute, or control of the ‘craft’ and he ventually gets ‘shot down’ by fireworks over a country town.
Rhys Ifans plays the part and manages a pretty convincing skippy accent thoughout.
How do they steer it?
She is still hot at 62…I miss the 80s. And the 60s and 70s. 90s we went nuts… exponentially so.
if i could put a freeze on technology and everything else like in the middle ages where from one century to another for several hundred yrs nothing really changed except who was king the date would be 1993 before the internet totally took over our reality. Yah no blogging but probably a more meaningful life.
regards,
ralph
A freakin´ balloon, what´s next Batman?
China brains vs USA hysterical belligerence. It will be interesting to see how it all evolves.
I love this story. Hope it’s true.
How does one disarm a bully? Ridicule works just fine.
This somehow reminescent of the time Russians flew a dildo copter during Kasparov’s panel. Pure and simple provocation. The Chinese already know where the rockets are, hell, they have their guys manning the doomsday triggers probably.
I think the Chinese are testing the definition of what constitutes acceptable overhead surveillance and may be trying to create a predicate for destroying our satellites if we go after their balloons.
Possible, they could be thinking of destroying satellites over Taiwan. But I’m more inclined to think the Russians contracted China to send the balloon. If the balloon goes pop … then pop go every NATO satellite over Russia/Ukraine. Would definitely be a major advantage to Russia, China probably rather little (at present at least).
As someone said, if the first balloon doesn’t get shot down there could be more, so Russia might have a chance yet.
This is a stray weather balloon. The erratic path of balloons makes it impossible to use them to gather usable ground intelligence. No doubt the Chinese expected it to crash in the western Pacific after it got the needed weather data.
Lots of countries still use weather balloons to get data on the vertical gradients of temperature, humidity, etc. They are a lot cheaper than aircraft, manned or unmanned.
The target for the Japanese fire bomb balloons was the entire west coast, almost a million square miles. The Japanese didn’t care what they hit, if anything, they were just supposed to be scary diversions.
How do we know it’s a Chinese spy balloon? Based on the word of our intelligence community? The same guys who say Ukraine is winning and Russia is just a tinker toy army lol.
My nephew’s imaginary friend is more believable.
With everything else happening in the world, I think 99 Luftbaloons is perfect
To worry, worry, super scurry
Call the troops out in a hurry
This is what we’ve waited for
This is it boys, this is war
Seems to me China owes Russia a solid, for taking on The Hegemon all by themselves.
And winning!
Maybe that’s what this trolling ballon is all about, it’s a celebration! A sign in the American high sky beamed not only to Russia but to the entire world, offering congradulations!
But it ain’t enough in my opinion. China should be required to rebuild and/or update the however many oblasts in the Ukraine the Russians end up with, at cost. I mean Odessa, the Jewel of the Black Sea, does not have a subway system! Ridiculous.
China could build them one in about 5 minutes. Take a look at this metro station in an outer suburb of Shenzen that is all the rage at the moment. It didn’t appear on Chinese plotting boards until 2018, and now it’s one of the 90 wonders of the modern world (all of which are in China btw).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul5rqQGaLQ4
Jason Lightfoot is the ex-pat vlogger and tour guide here. Been following him for years. Sometimes he can be a bit much, rubs China’s dominance in the face of Americans – and his fellow Brits – more than is necessary at times, but I do find him invaluable, because he is showing me the truth of things.
Like at the end, when he points out that never sees any litter on the ground in China. I can confirm, in over 250 hours walking in China, I haven’t seen enough litter to fill a tall kitchen bag.
The Four Things you don’t see in China are, cops, potholes, homeless people, and so much as a gum wrapper on the pavement.
Weren’t there supposed to be dozens of Chinese balloons floating over US some 10 years or so ago?
Then the story just disappeared like it were Russiagate or Cuban crickets of some other fake news.
If US propagandists didn’t set this thing up, I bet they wish they had. Perfect yellow peril nonsense.
They should let it crash in Roswell, and blame aliens.
Jokes aside, I find this whole thing very weird. Russians would have instantly shot it out of the sky. Does US even have the capability of targeting it?
If anoyne is interested on spy balloon history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Mogul (Roswell one)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Moby_Dick (those sent over USSR)
I’m Mr. Nobody. But lets think thing straight: China has its own Space Station. It launches several rockets and satellites a year. It flyes to the dark side of the moon. It perfectly lands a robot on Mars. Beijing leads the world in 5G technology, Electric Vehicles, and is among the top powers when we talk about hypersonic missiles, chip industry, quantum computing and nuclear fusion research. Besides, China historically mantains a very low profile concerning Geopolitcs. They built the Great Wall to keep the barbarians out. They never travelled half the world in ships to kill indians, they never dropped a single nuke on anybody’s heads. They don’t look for trouble and all their doctrine is about commiting to a peacefull rise. Now think of a balloon. If this is a regular balloon, it has no engines and is just blown away by the winds. Last, but not least, since 2016-17 the rethoric in the media about China suddenly changed, and we started to hear all about bad stories concerning China wrongdoings and just being evil, every week there is a new story, including a ridiculous claim about Chinese rockets falling over our heads. So, considering all this, don’t you guys think that maybe (just maybe) this new bad story about a Chinese Balloon is a little bit of a bullshit, just to create more and more of a bad mood against all things China and the CPC, just the same way it’s being done with Russia and Putin?
“They built the Great Wall to keep the barbarians out.” …. aaand that failed. “They never travelled half the world in ships to kill indians”…. this is a lie. A lie disguised as snark, intended to disparage the European conquest of a savage-infested resource-rich western hemisphere (anti-White, in other words). “Mr. Nobody”? how self-effacing of you. oi vay.
So the Chinamens all so peaceful etc. ok. whatever. Tell it to the dead millions killed during Mao’s peaceful rise to power. We do know that current Chairman Xi has publicly allied with Russia- so not geopolitical, right?
Most likely a false flag using a weather balloon.
Perfect in so many ways: villifing China (SoP), shifting the dialogue away from Ukraine (a lost cause), showing the administration as strong (shooting it down), showing the administration as weak (military fails to act) … something for all the factions to use.
China is not an agressive nation, their national philosophy is a mix of Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism.
China (and Russia) don’t need to provoke the US, which is nearing free-fall in collapse. Don’t interfere when your enemy is shooting himself in the head.
“Don’t interfere when your enemy is shooting himself in the head.”
I like it, it’s sort of an updated version of one of Napoleon’s axioms, “Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.” And a much needed update, I think, as Napoleon’s enemy’s were by and large, not suicidal.
The American contribution to modern diplomacy; it shoots itself in the head mid-negotiation.
the direction of the balloon route seems northern than cina, maybe it could been sent by another country just north if china, that tested sarmat icbm but maybe is not completley sure about where to send it’s multiple warheads. i think the usa should fear more the russian arsenal than chinese one, either cause they’re in a war with russia, not with china. and cause russian arsenal seems more threatening of course
“…the physics demands it”.
uh – that balloon seems to managing it just fine.
i thin the physics just requires the forces to balance – centripetal, buoyancy, radiation, whatever…
How do we know that this is not one of our own IC ventures conveniently being blamed on China? The tethered blimps of JLENS were supposed to protect against cruise missiles and drones, and they failed miserably at that. But what if they had another surveillance mission which was successful, and what if this ballon is a continuation of the program? Forgive me if I am skeptical about the government claims. Perhaps the WH didn’t know what the IC/DOD was up to?
“But International law does not define the edge of space, or the limit of national airspace.”
I’m not a lawyer, but laws of physics define that balloons float on air, and are always in airspace. The exact “border of space” is not really important because you can’t put anyting on it. It’s too high for balloons and too low for satellites.
Larry understands the ‘power of suggestion’!!!!
Balloons……let us consider it rationally.
1) Balloons have no mechanism for steering and hence are entirely subject to the physics of air movement at the atmosphere/space boundary.
2) Do we know for sure this was a Chinese launch? Ok, it could be others, NKorea, Russian, Japanese…….just because they are located in geographies where a balloon launch would allow the device to drift over N America…….where in N America??? – no one could accurately predict this in advance in Asia. The fact that it is over Montana is sheer chance – it could just as likely be over the Alberta Oil Sands region.
3) In WW2 the Japanese launched Fu-Go Balloon Bombs that drifted across the pacific ocean in the ‘hope’ that they would start massive forest fires in the western states that would draw US resources away from the pacific front. Great idea, but in practice it a flop because of the un-predictability and not way to control the flight paths.
4) Does anyone think the US missile silos are still unknown to the rest of the world since the launch of surveillance satellites?????
Your minds are being played with!
Whoever launched the balloon scored a lucky win by getting you to look up!
Forget the debacle in Ukraine people – LOOK! THE CHINESE ARE READY TO INVADE!!!!
Oh, the power of suggestion is strong!
Larry said, “The Russians, for example, will tolerate a satellite flying over Moscow but try that with a fixed wing, high flyer like the SR71 or U2.”
Matthias Rust made it to Red Square in a Cessna 172, the world’s first known Soviet airspace penetrator.
….and your point is what?
Matthias Rust was being tracked by Soviet air and commercial radar, he did not just fly in at Cessna speeds and surprise the Soviets. He is damn lucky he did not get shot down, but the Soviets, all to Rusts good fortune, did not see his plane as a threat. Rust also served 14 months in a Moscow detention center. He had his 15 minutes of fame, it resulted in the dismissal of several Soviet officials who, let the human side of them not shoot Rust down.
Rust pulled his stunt in 1987 but the story was different for KAL fight 007 in 1983. One has to wonder if the shoot down of KAL 007 and the public uproar from that shoot down led to the second guessing about the need to shoot down a Cessna 172.
Gee, I don’t know who to hate-on more: The guys on a hair-trigger expecting a US nuclear attack any time who thought they were protecting their airspace when they shot it down, or the guys in the Rivet Joint recon aircraft using KAL-007 as a decoy.
The first successful attempt to penetrate russian air defence. There were others, not so successful, like Gary Powel in U-2 about a decade before Mr. Rust. U-2 was duly taken down and the pilot captured. There was lot’s of fun in seveties too. 0)
Delivering cash to Washington?
New take on the old saying;
“A slow boat from China”.
Ok, balloons. Since no one mentioned it, I’ll tell the tale of The Red Balloon, a movie. My second grade teacher, Mrs Revolenski at Layton Hall Elementary ran it near end of the school year. The movie was made in France in 1956. There, it was considered a comedy. It was about a kid and his red balloon, given to him by the baker in his small French village. So, he’s walking through the streets of his village with his red balloon and it somehow got away from him. He follows the balloon all across his village pleading for the balloon to come back to him. Sometimes the balloon was stuck in a tree (and got away while the kid was climbing the tree) and kept flying along, other times, it hovered just beyond the kid’s reach to the string and then it would move on. Sometimes, the balloon would tilt to look down, it implied that this balloon could look down and communicate to the kid. As I recall, the balloon took off into the Wild Blue Yonder and the kid underwent grief but I don’t remember it perfectly. The whole thing was in French, but very communicative nonetheless. At the end of it, Mrs. Revolenski asked us our impressions of the movie.
Some kids said the string should have been longer. Others, other stuff. Being me, I had three impressions, 1) How did the balloon become to the kid anything more than an inanimate object? Of course, we all did that, all ships and boats are “she”, all our muscle cars were “Betsy”. But a balloon? 2) Was this movie about handling grief and mourning? 3) Or, as this kid was doing when the balloon got away, was the message that we should constantly keep reaching? I dunno, question 2 and 3 are in conflict because I can’t remember if he got the balloon back or lost it, but the issues were there.
All that said, we know the balloon would have risen to 5000 feet and popped. With this movie, you have to suspend disbelief, heh. Jesus Larry, this place is like a psychiatrist’s couch, Ha! Wouldn’t blame you if you killed me in moderation on this one. Just a memory about balloons..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74AirDyrLcU
22:00 reminds me of “Benedictus” in Latin traditional liturgy …
In 1946 in the Officers Club Pool at Maxwell Field AAF Base I eavesdropped on a bunch of fighter pilots talking about a secret they knew about something called The Hindenburg.
Years later I assigned the story to a writer and got a best seller and movie. You can watch it free
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUFYGUxdvRY
I suspect China would be laughing its a** off…if it were really theirs
For We have become a hissing and a byword.
This clown show in DC wouldn’t be complete without balloons
But the truth of the matter is clear the narrative continues to shift from Ukraine to China
I gotta admit very clever PR
It’s true we are the undisputed masters of lies and deception
It is obvious that those dirty Chinese were just trying to put a balloon in place to get a free peak at the upcoming Superbowl. These guys will stop at nothing to undermine democracy. A stern message must be sent. First Tik Tok now this!
Chinese is playing psyop w/ US military. Let’s face it, NO ONE truly understands the capabilities and strategies of both Russia and China. Many in the west discount the Chinese military, but then again, did they not send a mission to Mars? Did they send their own satellites for years w/ their own rockets? Did they also have their own quantum computer? Do they also have the most massive manufacturing scale the world has ever seen? I find it funny how the E and W think so differently. US loves to make these “end all” type weapons while the Chinese love to tinker w/ “tiny but effective drones and projectiles” to ensure maximum damage w/ minimal costs….
I agree, this is probably a Chinese psyop. On the other hand, isn’t it at least possible that they have some kind of instrument that needs to be closer to the ground to do its spying? Either way, they have once again made the US look impotent on the world stage.
More like an Empire psyop. USTRANSCOM (great name btw, LOL) official Mike Minihan moved up the timetable to war with China to 2025. Then two days later this comes out, even though they admit they’ve been tracking this balloon for days? Probably weeks or even MONTHS. This thing could have been circumnavigating the globe for years for all we know.
Give me a break.
Just found this after 30 seconds of searching on duckduckgo: https://news.yahoo.com/amid-warplanes-adiz-china-sent-000600399.html (hint, use the date range filter to remove all the hysterical garbage posted recently)
The goal is twofold: to get you to pee your pants over China and throw Ukraine under the bus.
Soft weak craven queefy femme societies will be stomped into the turf by enemies internal and external.
The Red Balloon – Oscar winning short film from 1956 (33:39)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VexKSRKoWQY
It seems to me the movie was about man’s – or more accurately in this instance, kid’s – inhumanity toward balloons, which leads me to a spoiler alert! Despite the unnecessary and gratutious death of our inanimate protaganist at the hands of a young slingshot artists, it has a happy ending.
You should read the comments below. You are definitely, not alone!
Couple of Creedence (John Forgety) songs come to mind regarding the Balloon
It came outta’ the sky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwAcvIZzuM0&list=OLAK5uy_nZqI07xRKf7BBFQ83CExyC5aNzOMmm0fM&index=2
Fortunate Son ( It ain’t me)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWijx_AgPiA&list=OLAK5uy_nZqI07xRKf7BBFQ83CExyC5aNzOMmm0fM&index=6
Or it may just be a damn weather balloon. No offense, but alt media types have a bad habit of making up wild theories when a simple explanation makes perfect sense. China has decent satellite tech. Why would they need to send a spy balloon? There is likely no ulterior motive.
Up, Up and Away
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2hI3-KvYZY
Larry you’re the best.
You remind me of my first, most adventures and wonderful voyage I’ve ever made in my life. In 1983 as a 21 year old swiss boy, still green behind my ears, no English and no driver license, I went to America. I flew to Chicago got somehow a car and was heading towards my first destination, Glacier N.P. in Montana. As I was driving through North Dakota and Montana on Highway 2, there was only radio reception when you’re nearing a bigger towns. As soon as you left those towns the only sound you could hear on your radio was static noise. Then it happens, between Malta MT and Harlem MT, loud and clear from my car radio , Nena with 99 LUFTBALLONS…….
Los militares deciden aceptar la orden de biden.
revientan el Globo y sale confeti rosa!
Es niña, es niña!!!! festejan euforicos en el Pentagono.
https://www.army.mil/article/10437/earn_money_in_army_referral_program?fbclid=IwAR3mmbO19SQbdzFaOn6IatKQ1A6xWf7_OC5NJ2M_eKF8wU-tu47dzjVozdQ
Here is some for you Larry. The Army will pay a civilian $2000 to Judas someone into a military recruiter. The Army National Guard will give you MEDALS if you refer people to the recruiter. Desperation.
The kids have wised up. They watched the previous generation get shattered in the forever wars that meant nothing. That did NOT protect their country or their family. That existed to make the rich even richer. And they have decided they are not going to die in the Ukrainian mud under a flag with a swastika on it, so Pedo Joe gets another 10%. A medal for referring friends. And Judas wept.
I am a proud veteran and glad I served, but today I would not advise any kid to join the military. Not even the Air Force. There is no honor in bombing wedding parties of civilians or killing for the sake of the MIC.
Exactly Lou. When I go to the VA hospital here in Tulsa, that is a prevalent conversation.
55 Miles…more like 55000 feet about 11 miles up and if they are like our spy balloons they can control the direction they fly in.
Didn’t the Japanese try something like that in WW2? Balloon bombs?
yes they did
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/japanese-balloon-bombs-in-saskatchewan-1.3444445
another health tip
Be True To Your Teeth – Andy in Canada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e03ma0kSs4g&ab_channel=TalesfromtheWindowsill
i thought that with this chinese thing being a balloon; that the flat earth guys would have a fieldday.
found this title on bitchute
Chinese spy balloon proves we are lied to about space and satelites
regards,
ralph
No way at 55 miles, more like 55000 feet…
It appears that you took down my first message about the altitude of the balloon not being at 55 miles. The news just reported info from the Pentagon saying that the balloon was at about 60,000 feet altitude. Not close to 55 miles. A correction is due…
I was not claiming the balloon was at 55 miles. Simply using the 55 miles up to point out the lack of a clearly delineated line. At what altitude does something flying over the United States become a threat that must be shot down?
It’s not about threat, or the exact line, but about airspace or outer space. Satellites are always in outer space, and balloons are always in airspace. The only thing that can pass trough “undefined region” are space rockets on their way up and ballistic missiles on their way up/down (like those North Korea launches over Japan). Balloons are fair game, and Soviet Union got those USA sent there long time ago.
So are satellites. Don’t kid yourself.
There is a precedent for shooting down balloons.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/cold-war-balloon-surveillance
Satellites are a fair game as much as airplanes in international airspace, or
ships in international waters are (or pipelines, for that matter). It’s a matter of “ef around and find out”.
“Don’t kid yourself.”
Does this count as an argument, or a lack of one?
You certainly implied it was at 55 miles up, which is insane for a balloon. The balloon was only at 60kft (12miles) many military planes can fly this high and this low altitude is relevant compared to satellites which are unreachable by aircraft. China certainly would have shot one down over their country and the balloon was over low-population areas for days but we didn’t shoot it down where potential damage on the ground was minimal.
Why allow China to complete its mission and then shoot it down? It was highly irresponsible and potentially dangerous for the US not to shoot it down. I am shocked you think not shooting this down was the right decision.
What was the threat? We allow Chinese satellites to fly over our territory and do more robust collection every day and we don’t lose our shit. Please tell me what the magic altitude is when we no longer care is there is an intel collection platform overhead.
There is no magic altitude but Space is a country-free zone while our airspace is not and should be protected by our military which we spend $700B/year. Moreover, 12 miles up is our airspace and is a helluva lot closer to Earth than a satellite which allows one to capture much higher resolution pictures (this is basic physics) and one can also include a lot more and better sensors than a satellite can carry (IR, UV, RF, etc.). I suppose you had the same opinion during the Cold War when Soviet planes would penetrate US air space, they also had satellites but you can get a lot of different info by being close and setting off defense systems. I can’t believe you do not think this is a big deal but you are certainly in a minority and that’s a good thing.
You win the Obtuse Comment of the Day award. So you’re okay with spy satellites but you hate balloons. Balloons are the new red line? As I clearly wrote, fixed wing aircraft have a legally defined boundary (controlled air space). Any fixed wing craft that strayed outside those parameters became fair game. Are all Swedes this crazy?
You wrote this…
“Let me start with this question — what is the difference between a Chinese spy balloon flying at 55 miles above the earth collecting intelligence via sensors and cameras and Chinese spy satellite flying at 70 miles above the earth collecting intelligence with sensors and cameras?”
The difference is that the balloon is only 60,000 feet above the earth not 55 freaking miles. 60,000 feet is only 15,000 feet higher than Lear jets cruise…
Oh please. Where is the line? What altitude does it no longer represent a threat? Don’t be a moron.
Likely just ocean surveillance balloon that couldn’t find a westerly layer. Owners lamenting the lost data stuck over land.
Could it be a dry run for an EMP attack?
We have a balloon gap in the US. This is the Sputnik missile gap all over again.
I demand a Presidential established blue ribbon commission to figure out how this happened. Heads might roll. We must establish how to overcome the gap. This might take two years.
Then it will take another two years of Congressional hearings where they posture politically for personal gain.
Then a new Balloon Force is established. This force will be well funded to get our military industrial complex involved in coming up ways to both close the gap and then achieve dominance.
This research will last two years. At the end of this research, Balloon Force will test the most promising solutions in cooperation with the military industrial complex.
These tests could last ten years. We’ll hire those folks that were intimately involved in the Bradley selection.
The next four years will be used for establishing force structure and doctrine and career paths. Acquisition will be conducted.
20 years in and they will sit in some depot somewhere and never be used. 20 years after that they will have rotted and will be sold at Gov Planet.
We have a balloon gap in the US. This is the Sputnik missile gap all over again.
I demand a Presidential established blue ribbon commission to figure out how this happened. Heads might roll. We must establish how to overcome the gap. This might take two years. Then it will take another two years of Congressional hearings where they posture politically for personal gain.
Then a new Balloon Force is established. This force will be well funded to get our military industrial complex involved in coming up ways to both close the gap and then achieve dominance.
This research will last two years. At the end of this research, Balloon Force will test the most promising solutions in cooperation with the military industrial complex.
These tests could last ten years. We’ll hire those folks that were intimately involved in the Bradley selection.
The next four years will be used for establishing force structure and doctrine and career paths. Acquisition will be conducted.
20 years in and they will sit in some depot somewhere and never be used. 20 years after that they will have rotted and will be sold at Gov Planet.
Reaction of World leaders to balloon kerfuffle:
https://t.me/iEarlGreyTV/4594?single
In other news, Germany will send 14 Leopard 2 and 88 Leopard 1 tanks.
14 88
https://t.me/zoka200/6880
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words
How did this balloon get into NATO’s precious bodily fluids, er, American airspace, without the Greatest In The Universe NATO air defences knowing about it? If it is a spy balloon, how is it supposed to get its data back to China? By satellite? What satellite? Where is it? Or will it beam the data over the horizon to Chinese ELINT planes? Those planes would have to be flying at the edge of the atmosphere to be over the horizon to a balloon in the middle of the North American continental landmass. It makes no sense. The Chinese claim that it is a runaway research balloon does.
Wow you are such a tool. One can easily transmit the data from a ballon to many other receivers.
Wow you are such a fool. One can easily transmit the data from a ballon to many other receivers.
“Chinese spy balloon!” is just another way of shouting “Look, a squirrel!”.
The media have been instructed to distract a critical mass of the population away from the looming Ukraine debacle (etc) to prepare the media space for the next current thing.
This story is so silly that I half-believe the spinmeisters are trolling their paymasters.
Trump ended the Open Skies Treaty.
Is it a dry run for the EMP attack?
Comrade Milley is on the RED phone to his fellow travelers?
@ Meme,
Did they really send 14-88?
They do know what that stands for right? (wink)
https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-send-leopard-tanks-ukraine-russia-war-rheinmetall/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/25/germany-leopard-2-tanks-ukraine
Has anyone even entertained the thought that this “spy” balloon is actually what the Chinese say it is, basically a weather balloon that has been blown off course, especially given that winds in the upper atmosphere can reach tremendous speeds. Why are we mindlessly accepting the typical Hate-China narrative that automatically depicts anything the Chinese do in the worst possible light. By not even questioning this force-fed narrative from the media and the government, we are just carrying water for the NeoCons who are salivating at the prospects of this event drawing us closer to war with China.
There is a second Balloon now
That is getting really strange
https://t.me/intelslava/44069
Soon there will be 99
A balloon?
Am I the only one thinking that this shape over the moon looks like the international space station (ISS) ?
Look at this official picture, turn it 90 degrees left and imagine that it is at a different angle where the solar panels are facing you and the middle part hides behind the central pillar…
https://www.esa.int/var/esa/storage/images/esa_multimedia/images/2010/02/iss_photographed_by_an_sts-130_crew_member2/10164959-2-eng-GB/ISS_photographed_by_an_STS-130_crew_member_pillars.jpg
You may ask when the ISS would have been visible from Marmstrom facilities (you know, the place where us military have nuclear weapons)… Lets have a look :
https://spotthestation.nasa.gov/sightings/view.cfm?country=United_States®ion=Montana&city=Great_Falls
So the ballon was spotted on Thursday 2nd right where the iss was supposed to be in the sky… visible over Montana…
IMHO someone presented the picture of the shape over the moon to Biden saying “it’s chinese spying”, he said “take it down” then someone in the US army said “wait a minute it’s the ISS”… and now they are showing pictures everywhere of this “balloon” crossing fingers that no one will think about the ISS.
Blaming an opponent to hide stupidity, dementia or to ignite a war and counting on people’s fears, rage and ignorance are well known means used by propaganda but also by incompetent people…
In french you say “plus c’est gros plus ça passe” which means the bigger the lie the easier it is to make it swallow…
Maybe I’m wrong, if it was the ISS it should maybe look smaller. Maybe it’s a coincidence that this thing looks like the ISS, or maybe it’s the evil chinese who shaped their ballon in a way to confuse me and make me think thst it’s the ISS ( in this case they tricked me, this was a good investment)
Regards from Switzerland
Where was NORAD on 11 Sept 2001 ?
People seem more concerned about balloons over empty spaces like Montana than errant planes over New York and DC
“We don’t want to shoot it down because of the payload”….however this thing goes over miles and miles of nothingness over Montana to Missouri.
The reality of this is that China was let in and allowed surveillance all across the heartland of our country. The U.S. government did this on purpose and provided a cover show after all the data was collected. How disgusting this is to see these traitors actually provide cannon fodder to the very Americans that have entrusted them to defend us.
Is it possible that the next balloon might carry an EMP device or several cannisters of biologic weapons designed to open just above the surface?
Very advanced technology might shoot down any incoming missile, but could we stop something falling straight down? I understand the first one went over Kansas City.
Gumshoe says: Hot tips for spooks.
https://twitter.com/jenniferzeng97/status/1621632014913867776?cxt=HHwWgMC81bnumIEtAAAA
Inconvenient Truths by Jennifer Zeng 曾錚真言
@jenniferzeng97
1. #ChineseSpyBallon is equipped with a detection and fight function, and also has the ability to provide near earth space communication relay functions to ground operations personnel infiltrating in the #US
https://twitter.com/jenniferzeng97/status/1621632020743966721?cxt=HHwWgsC-jeXumIEtAAAA
Inconvenient Truths by Jennifer Zeng 曾錚真言
@jenniferzeng97
2. It can provide EMP electronic jamming capability. To develop this high-altitude balloon, #XiJinping personally participated in the acquisition of a Canadian aerodynamic company & a New Zealand power company a few years ago to solve the technical problems
Source: @lude_media
2:09 PM · Feb 3, 2023
Let me ask you, since I am not a specialist on the matter. Would be a attempt of China to test the capabilities of US to hit targets close to the satellites?
I assume the English CC for the NENA video is AI generated. Although that is supposed to refer to Artificial Intelligence, it comes off as more like Autistic Intelligence, or maybe Artificial Stupidity. Here is NENA’s official English version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiwgOWo7mDc