Time for a history lesson. Let us assume you are Polish and you had two relatives who died in World War II. One was murdered in the Wolyn Massacre and one was executed in the Katyn ForestJos. Would it make any difference if I told you that the Wolyn Massacre was carried out on the orders of Ukrainian nationalist, Stepan Bandera while the Katyn Forest slaughter was headed up by Lavrentiy Beria, who hailed from the Republic of Georgia? Would it matter to you? Who would you hate more? Ukraine or Georgia?
Now let me add some more complicating factors. More than 100,000 Polish civilians, mostly women and children, were murdered during the Wolyn Massacre by Stepan Bandera fanatics while 20,000 Polish officers, professors and lawyers were exterminated by the Georgian, Lavrentiy Beria, who also happened to be the head of the Soviet NKVD. Bandera killed the Poles because he wanted to ensure the racial purity of Ukraine. Beria executed the Polish officers and elite because he wanted to eliminate future political opposition. Which of these monsters is the worst? (Me? I hope they each are burning in Hell).
I can see how someone could argue what Bandera did was worse because it was grounded in racism and was five times worse than the body count in the Katyn Forest. But let me add some further complications.
The Soviet Union’s leader, Josef Stalin is vilified for signing a cynical pact with Adolf Hitler that divided Poland between the two tyrants–Germany got the west and the Soviet Union got the east. Did you know that Stalin is not Russian? Like his compatriot thug, Beria, Stalin was born and raised in Georgia. And did you know that Stalin, worried about security on the Soviet Union’s western border, tried to first cut a deal with the British but was rebuffed (from the Wall Street Journal):
Prof. Ian Ona Johnson omits evidence that the Soviets did attempt to establish an anti-Hitler coalition in the run up to the war. Recent scholarship confirms the numerous efforts by Joseph Stalin to reach out to Britain, and through it to other Western governments, to join in presenting a united front against Hitler. In the most important of these, Soviet Ambassador to Britain Ivan Maisky repeatedly approached the Chamberlain government about such an alliance. Loath to ally with the communists, Neville Chamberlain responded at various points by either ignoring these entreaties or slow-waking talks that could have led to a deterrent to Hitler.
When these overtures failed, the Soviets turned to Germany to seek an alternative that would protect them and, not coincidentally, reward them with expanded territory. In no way does this excuse or lessen the evil of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, nor does it deny the legitimacy of Prof. Johnson’s larger point, but one must acknowledge the historical record.
The Poles have other reasons to hate the Soviets. When the Polish Army rose up in Warsaw against the Nazis, they hoped that the approaching Soviet Army would come to their rescue:
The Warsaw Uprising (Polish: powstanie warszawskie; German: Warschauer Aufstand) was a major World War II operation by the Polish underground resistance to liberate Warsaw from German occupation. It occurred in the summer of 1944, and it was led by the Polish resistance Home Army (Polish: Armia Krajowa). The uprising was timed to coincide with the retreat of the German forces from Poland ahead of the Soviet advance.[15] While approaching the eastern suburbs of the city, the Red Army temporarily halted combat operations, enabling the Germans to regroup and defeat the Polish resistance and to destroy the city in retaliation
When Poland fell under Soviet control at the end of the war, Stalin intensified a campaign of terror:
During the most oppressive phase of the Stalinist period (1948–1953), terror was justified in Poland as necessary to eliminate reactionary subversion. Many thousands of perceived opponents of the regime were arbitrarily tried and large numbers were executed.
Now here is a question–why don’t the Poles hate the Republic of Georgia (not the state in the United States)? The two guys responsible for making the decision that led to the deaths of tens of thousands of Poles–Josef Stalin and Lavrentiy Beria–were Georgians, not Russians.
One more fun fact. It was the Russian, Mikhail Gorbachev, who reversed years of Soviet denials about the murders in Katyn Forest and issued an official apology for the horrific action of the Soviet Union.
Polish anger at Soviet leadership and Soviet communism for their years of loss and suffering is quite understandable and justified. But modern Russia is not a communist state. Far from it. The Communist Party of Russia no longer wields the power:
In the latest round of Russian elections, the Communist Party of the Russian Federation (CPRF), the successor to the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, won 57 out of 450 seats in the State Duma. It is the second largest party in the lower parliamentary house, behind President Putin’s United Russia party.
These are the facts. This is not political spin. Putin’s Russia is described in a publication that is not sympathetic to Putin or Russia:
Putin’s government is not communist nor even socialist. It is a reactionary and right-wing government. Remnants of Russia’s soviet past exist in the form of the Russian communists, who have a not inconsiderable amount of support inside the state.
My purpose in writing this is to remind you that history is nuanced and complex. With the current war in Ukraine we are witnessing Poland’s willingness to not only ignore the ethnic genocide carried out by Ukraine’s hero, Stepan Bandera, but enthusiastically support Ukrainian nationalists who hate Russia and venerate Bandera. History is rife with tales of strange bed fellows getting cozy with one another. How long will the current love affair between Poland and Ukraine last? I don’t know, but the next few months are likely to reveal whether this is a marriage of convenience or a lasting relationship.
Great insights Mr. Johnson! Thanks for sharing.
Thank you, Mr Johnson for another in depth analysis. I would ask the cynical question: Has Poland decided that Russia will win and that Russia does not want the western Ukraine, so Poland is sucking up to the Ukraine to create the “borderless” Poland-Ukraine that has already been mentioned by both. Since the Ukraine is already a failed state, that would make the eastern Ukraine, Poland
Certainly a possibility that Polish leadership is contemplating.
@jimmywalter
Poland is already salivating to swallow western ukrostan…
My mistake, should have been “that would make the Western Ukraine, Poland”
And many Poles believe, with good cause, that much of western Ukraine is part of Poland.
how about Germany territories that are now part of Poland wich were former territory of Germany east of the Oder–Neisse line, consisting of the southern portion of East Prussia and most of Pomerania, Neumark (East Brandenburg), and German Silesia. Poland also received the town of Swinemünde (now Świnoujście) on the island of Usedom and the city of Stettin (now Szczecin) on the western bank of the Oder river in accordance with the Potsdam Agreement. If Poland want Galicia wich to be honest belonged to Poland, is not a correct thing to give back to Germany those lands? I dont even mention Danzing Est Prussia because is not all under Polish rule..but was teh spark that started WW2…. in my opinion if Poland wisg to get back Galicia myst return to Germany all the land they got same Russia to give back Kialingrad region.
Allegedly, Zhukov said to Rokossovsky at some point in 1945 “We freed them, and they will never forgive us for this”.
The Polish Russian rivalry goes way back. Their were wars between Russia and Poland-Lithuania going back to the 1500’s and wars with Lithuania all the way back to 1368. Polish troops even occupied Moscow for two years from 1610-1612. The real antagonism between Russia and Poland goes back to 1772-95 when Russia, Prussia, and Austria Hungary partitioned Poland and it ceased to exist till after World War I. The Russians had to put down some Polish uprisings in the 1800s as well.
As for the Warsaw uprising there a few things people seem to miss.
1. There were multiple factions in the Polish resistance, Communist and Western leaning. They were not fond of each other with almost no communication between the two and the latter were the ones who conducted the uprising
2. There was a Polish division with the Soviet army outside Warsaw from the former group.
3. The Red army had already advanced over 600km from Bagration, so they were quickly outrunning their support.
4. Just as the uprising was starting the Germans had conducted a successful counterattack that blunted the Red Army advance.
5. Later in August the Red army effort shifted focus to knocking Romania out of the war and removing the primary source of oil for Germany.
6. It was Stalin what should we expect.
This sort of argumentation always puzzles me, not in a sense that I think it is wrong, but it really does puzzle me – I do not know what to do with it. I could understand the first 5 arguments by themselves, or the sixth by itself, but when they are together… I see the three options for reading what you wrote:
1) Ignoring the sixth – then it is all rational.
2) Ignoring the first five – then he was a psychopath, it explains everything.
3) All 6 together – answers nothing (at least to me), since no conclusion can be drawn.
Unless of course you mean “It was Stalin what should we expect” sarcastically.
Yes I agree with that. But I lived in Warsaw 20 years (including 7 years on the East bank of the Vistula where the Russians camped out) and everyone thinks that Russia delayed to remove Polish leadership. They all think Russians are bastards and no one thinks that about Ukraine.
There was funding for a huge film about Katyn in 2007 (someone at the NED was doing their job). But no one ever mentioned Wolyn. And very few know the difference between the Khatyn massacre and the Katyn massacre.
This of course is what propaganda is all about. “We don’t need to recognise genuine historical rights and responsibilities – because our voters don’t recognise them anymore”.
A similar version is “we don’t have to fear Russian nuclear missile advantages, because our voters don’t understand them, so we politicians are forced to play hard ball even if we do know the truth”.
On the other hand there remains a lot of post-Soviet scepticism about news. Those that don’t support PiS are usually strongly against it, so now that PiS has taken control over all the TV stations and most of the media, people are far more willing in Poland to doubt what they hear – especially about events in Ukraine.
Since, the Uprising lasted from August to October, then the Red Army could have most likely diverted resources to help if they really wanted to, but given the objectives on the ground and Stalin’s past would we have expected him to divert resources from other fronts instead of making the cold, albeit rational decision to not assist because it simply was not a priority. Considering the offensive that liberated Warsaw the Vistula-Oder did not start until January 1945 there is less of a case of a deliberate halt, than if it would have started in November or late October.
The Red Army halted seemingly unexpectedly multiple times though. After the Vistula Oder offensive they were only a short distance from Berlin which was defended by only a couple German divisions and could have easily been taken in Feburary 1945, but they instead stopped and worked to shore up other fronts before advancing further, which allowed the Germans to build a better defensive line for the capital.
Larry, you should probably take a look at Phil Geraldi’s take at who is also influencing the West’s backing of Ukraine in the war. Certainly the who’s who amongst the oligarchs is important.
https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/how-jewish-is-the-war-against-russia/
Yes, Phil is a friend. I read his piece.
Could it be the only reason Poland is currently BFF of The Ukraine is because they are deceitfully swallowing up the North West, after that it’s likely they’ll eradicate the Ukro Nazis.
Despite I really appreciate your views and efforts to hightlight different aspects of the same situation, I’m always surprised how one-sided you become when you talk about Stalin time soviet government.
Here in Russia this proliberal globalist sentiment has grown a lot too. In our childhood and teenager time we have been fed with fairly tailes about Beria raping young girls and then putting them in a bath of sulfuric acid afterwards and similar. It really has had an effect – I’ve grown up with the feeling that 20s-50s was the darkest time of the russian history better not to touch at all. Now I understand that reality can be just the opposite.
“To be burn in hell” Beria has been one of the most effective russian managers of all time responsible for both atomic and cosmic programs. Despite being one of initiators of Katyn, if to talk about great terror of 1937-38, it was Beria who stopped not started it – he become head of NKVD in 1938 (while in liberal media you always read a narrative that Beria was massively creating shooting lists for Stalin to sign them).
Even with all that propaganda, if you ask an ordinary russian who has been the worst ruler for russian people in 20th century, top 2 will be Elzin and Gorbachev while Stalin will be in top of the rules russian people “would like to see again”. Simple demographic graph proves the real effect of repressions in 30s and “democracy” of 90s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia.
What I totally agree is that current russian government is nowhere near communist intentions and direction. What russian people wait the most from SMO and sanctions is the government finally kicking out pro western globalists and economists and at long last doing left turn but naturally we won’t see it.
I give credit to Stalin for dragging the Soviet Union into the modern world. But his disregard for human life is not a creation of western propaganda. The number of Communists who were murdered or imprisoned by him are an historical fact. There was a reason that Khrushchev denounced the horrors Stalin unleashed on the Soviet Union. Unlike Hitler, at least Stalin would listen to his Generals. I also credit him for that. But don’t whitewash the bastard into some sort of saint.
The sad fact is countries are run by ruthless men. They have to be. If you don’t have one, well, then you end up with some goober banging his shoe on TV.
Or Joe Biden….
I doubt Joe can tie his shoes.
Leaders of countries often have to be hard – their survival and that of their country is often at risk if they aren’t. There are always two sides of a story – and the winner of a war usually gets to provide the history of that conflict. You say Stalin was a “bastard”, but Stalin was protecting the interests of the USSR. He had to be brutal. The Jewish Bolsheviks conducted a multi-decade war against the Russian people and the Orthodox Church. Much of the death in the Soviet Gulags was down to harsh Jewish communist commissars who hated Russians and wanted to destroy them all. Stalin and Beria worked diligently and tirelessly to remove these creatures from power. That required extremely brutal tactics cleaning the army and political offices of these people. The idea that Stalin was responsible for tens of millions of his citizens is also highly suspect as historical population census figures do not support this. If Stalin was really murde ring millions of Russians there would be no reason for the Russian people to admire him so – yet they did. Killing millions could not possibly be hidden from the people-at-large and would have generated great hatred for anyone who did such things.
As for truely brutal people, you can not ignore the likes of Churchill, Roosevelt and Eisenhower who literally murdered millions of innocent Germans and Japanese, both before and after the war. And you can’t ignore the brutality of the British Empire in its colonies who murdered innocent people and raped these countries of their wealth. And you can’t ignore the genocide of the Native America nations across the face of the North American continent and the brutal financial and military subjection of South American countries by the USA.
So in my opinion I see brainwashed Americans and British are constantly throwing mud at the leaders of rival countries and ignoring their own brutal leaders. What on earth is the difference between murdering millions of Soviets and murdering millions of Native Americans and Germans? Who can not see the gross hypocrisy?
I must commend the level of debate and information being discussed here. The history lessons for me by reading all of the responses are worth the time to read, thanks to all of you.
My perspective of Russia comes from my parents who had to live under Communist rule after having fought the Nazis. They were Polish citizens. They hated the Communists as much as they hated Germany. They left Poland as soon as possible as it was under Communist rule.
A bit of sarcasm here. Perhaps Poland is giving sustenance and shelter to the Ukrainians because many really want to be Polish as many speak Polish. Isn’t that enough of a reason to invade Ukraine?
Just another side glance, perhaps Poland has not forgotten the oppression and disgusting treatment they received under Communism, and this is in some way payback.
Sarcasm might actually be unwarranted here. What I see in Russian media, blogosphere and various “leaders of opinion” is that one of the biggest problem for Russia with Ukraine is not formal plans for entering NATO, or even de facto natoization of the last 8 years, but the following combination (i) West does not seem to care too much about how many Ukrainians could die, (ii) militarization, (iii) strong anti-Russian/nationalistic/Bandera-Shukhevych-loving attitude, (iv) strong belief that the West will step in and support militarily. This combination, from the Russian perspective (how i see it) might/will lead to constant problems and possibilities of military escalations, so here we are. Now, there is a strong opinion coming again from the same blogosphere/media/semi-officials that “we do not want to deal with those westerners (Ukraine westerners), so let the Poles have’em”. The idea is that Poles will at least deal with those Bander-Shukhevych-inclined radical elements (because presumably some in Poland remember Wolyn), so if the west of Ukraine wants to be with Poles, let them have it, Russia (USSR really) already dealt with OUN-UPA after WWII, it was bloody and long, and now it is Poland’s turn. Long story short, there is a strong (but perhaps not 100%) public opinion in Russia that if Poles will take the western Ukraine and deal with those radical nationalistic elements, that would be for the better.
I wouldn’t say the KPRF is the successor of the KPSS. The latter was banned and the former has very little continuity with it in personnel or policy
To ask the question “why don’t Poles hate the Republic of Georgia” (since both Beria and Stalin were born there) is a bit like pondering why Iraqis or Afghans don’t hate Connecticut (since George W Bush was born there). The two Georgians were officials of The Soviet Union and acting in what they perceived to be its, not specifically Georgia’s, interests. And Russia is the successor state to The Soviet Union, so it legally took up the burden of the consequences of Soviet policies and decisions. So Polish hatred of Georgia would be silly and way off the mark.
You mean to ignorant people Russia equates to USSR.
Your analogy makes no sense. Other than to cater to the ignorant who fail to appreciate that as adults we should understand the world is more complex than Micky Mouse level good or bad.
First different systems. Stalin had decision making power on a level Bush did not. Bush, disgusting as he was, was far from alone in engineering savage wars, he was the head of government, sure, but more than he are to blame, the entire MICCIMATT and neo cons but yes he as leader holds primary responsibility.
Connecticut is also not a country or distinct nation since it became a colony. If it was Then Iraqis and Afghans may just want to beat the shit out of it.
C’est la vie.
In Germany, Ukraine ambassador Melnyk was now recalled by Selensky, after having shown his admiration for Bandera in interview.
But, this mainly happened after polish pressure.
German government should have evicted Melnyk since long, as he had a really terrible behaviour, constantly insulting Germany and germans in a very vulgar way.
there are rumours that poland and West Ukraine could do some kind of merger, but I´m wondering why Poland does not realize ukr nationalism.
This can´t work well, even if Duda and Selensky seem to be best buddies.
the recalling of Melnyk is only curing a symptom.
As far as I know there is quite a cult for Bandera in Ukraine since some years; monuments were erected, Streets were named after him.
An important post by Larry. Another one.
I have already recommended Larry’s Blog to the oldest Polish magazine “Myśl Polska” (Polish Thought), published continuously since the Second World War, now a rare dissident publication, censored, of course, by the pathologically russophobic PIS-controlled Polish government.
The topic of Poland is impossibly complex. I can only touch upon a few points, and even this may take more than just one post.
An average American stops thinking once he or she hears the word “communism.” It’s so easy: everything about communism was bad, evil, and black.
But it wasn’t.
First of all, the word itself is a semantic trap. Like “democracy,” the word has several meanings, and none of them applies to Poland. Calling post-war Poland “socialist” is a better term.
Socialist (Communist) Poland can claim some enviable accomplishments. All education was free. It was also high quality. The English Department of the University of Cracow, for example, had one of the most ambitious and advanced programs in the world. The Technical College in Cracow (AGH) was one of the best in Europe. (I could offer other examples, but not now.)
I repeat: all education (including, of course, college and university education) was free. Not only free: students who came from poor families could qualify for free board and lodging. (What can the US offer in comparison?) Also, children of most families could enjoy annual summer vacations. (They were called “wyjazdy na kolonie” and were fully subsidized by the firms where their parents were employed. The destinations were usually such attractive regions as the Baltic Sea coast and the lakes districts in northern Poland or the mountains in the south. (What can the US offer in comparison?)
Medical care was also free. Yes, free. (There was a private sector, much more expensive, but not necessarily better.) Of course, it was underfunded. Poland was rising from the dead after the War. Poland received no Marshall Plan. (Some help was provided by the Russians.) Everything had to be rebuilt from scratch.
“Funding” brings me to another remarkable accomplishment of the Polish Socialist Government. Poland was devastated economically; the basic infrastructure was annihilated; Warsaw—a beautiful city—was a heap of smoldering ruins. The roads and railways were mostly destroyed.
And yet within a short time, the Socialist Government found a way to inspire Polish people to rebuild their country–a stunning, virtually unprecedented accomplishment. (A Finnish journalist once reported that the Poles should have been really proud of themselves and not feel intimidated by the “wealth of the West” because the US, for example, with the exception of Hawaii, was not even touched by the apocalypse of the Second World War. Within a short time, though, Socialist Poland became one of the most industrially developed countries in Europe.
But there is so much more. Maybe, I will continue. I don’t know, though. The task seems unsurmountable.
Hungary has joined the shark frenzy: http://www.rt[dot]com/news/559046-hungary-ukraine-military-plans
Hungary has ‘military plans’ for Ukraine – minister
Budapest needs to protect ethnic Hungarians living in the western part of the bordering country, FM Peter Szijjarto has said
Hungary has ‘military plans’ for Ukraine – minister
Hungary has military plans on how to protect ethnic Hungarians living in western Ukraine, Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto has revealed. Budapest is ready to act in defense of 150,000 people it considers its own, he revealed in an interview on Friday.
Yep. My dark sense of humor has me finding it hilarious that after all of the talk of noble sovereign Ukraine and evil imperialistic Russia, Ukraine, west of the Dnieper, might be invaded and divided up by neighboring NATO countries. Image the exploding heads of all of the narrative makers and their mindless consumers.
A problem in Europe (not just in the eastern part of the continent) is that every country has a reason to dislike its neighbours if it chooses to.
The best way to create that emotion is to narrate history selectively. When history is told honestly in an attempt to explain rather than as a good versus evil morality play then we can cut through that.
This is a helpful article for cutting through the nonsense because it is taking a balanced perspective.
Hello everyone, greetings from the Czech Republic
I’m not a so-called Stalinist, but I’m an old guy who remembers a lot. Stalin, (the tyrant who had hundreds of millions of people slaughtered) took over a country with a feudal system of farming where over 85% were illiterate. His methods of governance were appropriate for the time. Terrible from today’s perspective. But at the time, probably necessary. Consider the conditions in Russia at the time. Or do you think it was different under the Tsars? If the men rebelled somewhere, someone came to negotiate? They were shot at best, hanged at worst, and then it was all over.
You know, with the millions slaughtered, everybody throws their weight around. I recently read in a newspaper that up to 50 million people starved to death in Ukraine during the famine (1930s). The problem was that the whole of Ukraine at that time had a population of less than 40 million. Otherwise, the famine occurred primarily because the USSR at the time desperately needed to buy Western technology to keep industry going at all, and the West required payment in grain. It’s a judgment call as to which was more important. From today’s perspective, of course, the people.
Well, this statesman proved that a feudal country, without any industry, without scientists, without adequate technologies of its own, when it had to build all this itself, turned into a world power in 40 years and was the first in the world to send an astronaut into space. And it still had the “little inconvenience” of World War II with the scorched earth and the liquidation of millions of people who, instead of building up the country, had to fight not only to liberate their own country but also half of Europe. All of this, all of you who hate Stalin so much, have somehow forgotten.
You make the point very well. In the rush to demonize Stalin and lionize Churchill and Roosevelt, people with some knowledge of history fail to grasp any perspective about the reality each had to deal with.
Thanks. Let me add another comment – The Treaty between Germany and the USSR, (Molotov – Ribbentrop) – as I see it:
On April 16, 1939, after the occupation of Bohemia and Moravia by German troops, the Soviets made an official proposal for a united front for joint aid between Great Britain, France and the USSR… There can be no doubt that Britain and France should have accepted the Russian offer.” (Churchill, Winston. The Second World War. Prague: Lidové noviny, 1992. Pg. 326). However, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain rejected the negotiations, saying they were premature, and began to push the idea of a joint declaration by Britain, France, the USSR and Poland against the threat. Poland, however, refused to sign the declaration. Negotiations between the USSR and Great Britain, which took place from mid-March to the end of April 1939, were unsuccessful, however.
In August 1939, a planned meeting of the three parties (British-French-Soviet) on military matters was held in Moscow to define what the response of the three powers should be to the expected German aggression. By mid-August, the negotiations had reached their most problematic point: allowing Soviet troops to pass through Poland. British and French officials pressed Polish officials to agree to this option. Polish officials eventually refused to allow Soviet troops to enter Polish territory, with Polish Foreign Minister Józef Beck pointing out that once the Red Army entered their territory, it might never leave.
Consequently, on 21 August the Soviets suspended the trilateral military talks. On the same day, Stalin received assurances that Germany would agree to the secret part of the proposed non-aggression pact that defined the areas of interest to both sides. Stalin promptly replied that he agreed and would receive German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop on 23 August. The latter arrived in Moscow on 23 August. After a short rest, the final negotiations between the two sides took place, and at two in the morning, already on 24 August, the “Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact” was signed.
Regarding
“[Stalin] proved that a feudal country, without any industry, without scientists, without adequate technologies of its own”,
This is grossly inaccurate, and utterly unfair to the previous regime.
At the level of individuals, consider the example of Nikolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky.
For institutions, consider e.g.
the Russian Academy of Sciences
Or, for a research university, e.g.,
Kazan University, home base for Lobachevsky.
Another blogger I follow brought to my attention a Russian media report that Poland might send troops into western Ukraine to ‘secure’ the area and free Ukrainian troops for the impending blitzkrieg against Kherson. lol.
The article shares the perspective of a former Ukrainian diplomat, now in Russia.
https://awfulavalanche.wordpress.com/2022/07/15/ukraine-war-day-142-poland-to-the-rescue/
Speaking as third gen Pole you completely misunderstand Eastern European relations. As a Pole I have a hierarchy of hate. You only think about the 20th century for relations. We have a thousand years of chopping each other heads off ok.
Forget World War 2. Im still pissed off about the Treaty of Vienna.
For Poles, Russia hate is like Boston Red Socks fans hating the Yankees. Just dont try to understand this.
Remember Ukrainians arent really a separate people to us. They are the prize we Poles fight the Russians over.
True. And I didn’t even delve into the Roman Catholic vs Russian Orthodox religious angle. However, most people in the west (besides Poland) only think of this in terms of the last 85 years.
Hate is a terrible foundation for policy. Particularly one based on centuries of animus. Poles, who are largely Catholic, would do well to heed the teachings of Jesus with regards to forgiveness.
Have been thinking for the last day what to ask, and could not come up with anything succinct, unfortunately. 🙂 How would you describe the present attitude in Poland with respect to Ukraine (the present war, refugees, Wolyn, OUN-UPA) and Russia? Is the attitude pretty monolithic, or there are factions? Any dynamic to the attitude, or it is pretty static? I understand this is very-very broad, and perhaps deserves a series of articles (at least), but I am generally and honestly interested in this and could not find anything substantial in Russian or English (may be I did not search too hard?). Thanks!
There is not a lot of discussion (as far as I can see) in the Russian internet over anything related to Poland, except various commotion of NATO/Polish troops in the eastern Poland, and whether Poland will enter Ukraine or not. I would really value some in-depth analytics on Poland, but I could not find it. The most I could see was a few brief discussions almost welcoming the situation if Poland will enter western Ukraine, because it would then be forced to deal somehow with all those “Bandera is a national hero” things. Are things like that (or related) being discussed in Poland at all? If you can think of written (English or Russian) sources discussing these things, please point me in that direction. Thanks a lot!
Mr. Johnson, are you familiar with Carrol Quigley’s opinion that Chamberlain’s sellout of Czechoslovakia was designed not for peace but for war? The Czechs were well-armed and could have defeated Germany, so Hitler would have enlisted the Poles and the Hungarians in the cause and Benes would have had only Stalin to back him up. Britain and France then would have then supported Hitler in his war against communism (at least at first).
The scenario always fascinated me, and I have never seen anyone comment on it.
http://www.carrollquigley.net/misc/Quigley_explains_how_Germany_conquered_Czechoslovakia.htm
I am not familiar with it. I’ll take a look. Thanks
I’m sorry Larry, who is 99.99% spot on most of the time.
Terrible metaphors here. The Poles generally have pathologically hated, and been brainwashed to hate Russia going long, long way back.
Katyn massacre was committed by the nazis, and I’m not going to apologize for those real evil bastards.
I’ll leave it to a serious historian, who made this excellent post at another mostly serious observer like yourself, website a couple of years ago.
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/06/putin-on-world-war-ii.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef0263e951c91a200b#comment-6a00d8341c640e53ef0263e951c91a200b
The evidence is overwhelming. The Soviets did it. Beria and Molotov were both involved. If the Nazis did it then Gorbachev would not have issued an apology for the murders.
The question who committed the atrocities at Katyn has probably caused me some health problems. I have spent too much time poring over all kinds of documents available online. I cannot possibly go over some of the evidence now, but I can at least recommend one remarkable source: Prof. Grover Furr’s book “The Mystery of the Katyn Massacre.” I have reached a stage where I neither believe nor disbelieve the official narrative. I simply have had to suspend my judgment.
The history lesson for me was eye opening. But you ask why the poles hate the Russians so much? Because their narrative building media tells them to do so. You just ‘Red’ pilled me, taking a page from the the movie, ‘The Matrix’. A very small percentage of the populations in any country are capable of being red pilled, the rest are still in the matrix.
Poland’s “puzzling support for Ukraine” is just because Poland is controlled by Zionists (Zionism)…